Feral questions? - Page 22

Blazefire · 12/31/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by halmmar

Haste reduces GCD when casting spells, not when using physical attacks (this applies more for people using rage).
For feral, haste is most useful for a bear tanking 2 mobs. Depending on talents and gear it's slightly worse or slightly better than crit rating for kitty dps. This is because crit doesn't scale well at high crit ratings. Haste on the other hand scales well at high AP and crit due to more OOC procs and auto-attacks doing more damage on average.

Furthermore, GCD caps at 1sec even for spells and for kitties, our GCD is already at 1 sec, just like rogues. In either case, no haste won't affect our GCD at all.

coldbear · 12/31/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

I'm not an inscriber and I've got the Deck crafted and waiting for Darkmoon on the 8th. As for choice between stats, I'm most definitely going with the Agility card as I'm rapidly approaching the gear level that Agi once again equalizes or overtakes Str for DPS. I'm using Tossk's calculator for my gear choices and I'm happy with his modeling so far.

Necromancing this post, but the comments are intriguing, contribute to the discussion and do not seem to have been replied to in this thread - which is why this isn't a PM.

Your armory three weeks later in apparent cat dps gear has an average ilvl of 211 (max 226) via http://www.quickarmory.com/?n=wind&r=Dark+Iron, and you have the +90 Agi Greatness card as well as being min/maxed with LW/JC. Rather than duplicating your research, could you tell us at what gear level you found Agi > Str for pure dps purposes? You currently seem to be gemmed/enchanted for both Str/Agi, I'm assuming you're right on the cusp of Agi = Str?

After reading through http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36999-feral_druid_numbers/ I'm not seeing why either. Care to elaborate? Reason why I'm so interested is that I'm sitting on the Nobles deck and was planning on going with the Str card for dps purposes. I would love to be proven wrong, as the Agi version would serve better dual-duty for tanking as well.

Habba · 01/02/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

Necromancing this post, but the comments are intriguing, contribute to the discussion and do not seem to have been replied to in this thread - which is why this isn't a PM.

Your armory three weeks later in apparent cat dps gear has an average ilvl of 211 (max 226) via http://www.quickarmory.com/?n=wind&r=Dark+Iron, and you have the +90 Agi Greatness card as well as being min/maxed with LW/JC. Rather than duplicating your research, could you tell us at what gear level you found Agi > Str for pure dps purposes? You currently seem to be gemmed/enchanted for both Str/Agi, I'm assuming you're right on the cusp of Agi = Str?

After reading through http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36999-feral_druid_numbers/ I'm not seeing why either. Care to elaborate? Reason why I'm so interested is that I'm sitting on the Nobles deck and was planning on going with the Str card for dps purposes. I would love to be proven wrong, as the Agi version would serve better dual-duty for tanking as well.

While I don't speak for Wind, I believe I can help shed some light on this for you. The following link is to Toskk's DPS Gear Method. On this page Toskk has updated his Strength vs. Agility graph to reflect the new WotLK mechanics. In a raid setting we can assume that we will have Savage Roar up almost 100% of the time. With that said in my DPS setup (4pT6 I'm a primary Tank) I'm able to hit 11,000 AP pre-consumables. Referencing Toskk's graph and assuming a 40% critical strike chance the point that agility becomes better point for point than strength is somewhere between 13000 and 13100 attack power. This means that I'd only need to gain another 2,000 AP after Savage Roar to hit the point where agility overtakes strength once more. So this means that I'd need to add about 1500 attack power before Savage Roar. Again this is coming from the standpoint of a 4pT6 user so I'm fairly certain it isn't that far fetched that Wind is currently sitting at the break point.

Mijae · 01/02/09, 2:12 PM

The main issue in my mind is that even if agility doesn't become better than strength, it is definitely close. While not ideal it is possible to tank bosses even currently in dps gear. There have been a few times I've picked up tanking in dps gear and saved a wipe. Next patch the difference will be even smaller. Switching 16 str gems to 16 agi is maybe sacrificing 1-3 dps for about a 0.25% gain in dodge (and a small amount of armor).

It might come down to raid composition and guild leader's stand-point on min/maxing. I basically have the same role I had in BC as OT/MT/dps depending on fight. A hybrid spec is still possible and agility is key to maintaining it. Of course some items can be tailored to the encounter, but anywhere I can reduce gear I will.

Mysticum · 01/04/09, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Habba

While I don't speak for Wind, I believe I can help shed some light on this for you. The following link is to Toskk's DPS Gear Method. On this page Toskk has updated his Strength vs. Agility graph to reflect the new WotLK mechanics. In a raid setting we can assume that we will have Savage Roar up almost 100% of the time. With that said in my DPS setup (4pT6 I'm a primary Tank) I'm able to hit 11,000 AP pre-consumables. Referencing Toskk's graph and assuming a 40% critical strike chance the point that agility becomes better point for point than strength is somewhere between 13000 and 13100 attack power. This means that I'd only need to gain another 2,000 AP after Savage Roar to hit the point where agility overtakes strength once more. So this means that I'd need to add about 1500 attack power before Savage Roar. Again this is coming from the standpoint of a 4pT6 user so I'm fairly certain it isn't that far fetched that Wind is currently sitting at the break point.

You are actually way off. As clearly stated in the text, "The total Attack Power and Critical Strike Chance axes of the graph represent your character sheet raid buffed stats without Savage Roar.". That means won't find yourself having Str < Agi in the nearest future.

tr33hugger · 01/05/09, 7:19 AM

Hi, i'm switching from beeing moonkin to feral again. I already have a nice set for tanking and want to improve my kitty gear. I try to create a wish list with "best for slot" items while keeping 2t7 but i'm not sure how to weight dps stats. I've been looking for up-to-date lootrank stat-rankings for kitty but could not find any. So i entered my raidbuffed stats into Toskk's Calc to get the rarings. Right now, str is valued way over agi which does not surprise me. What i'm curious about is the ranking between haste/crit/arPen/hit ratings (for me it's 1.10/1.09/1.26/1.46 in that order). I always thought that haste is a very poor stat for 3.0 feral dps, but it's rated above crit. Also armor penetration seems quite high to me. The stats i entered were ap : 8000, crit 45%, hit 30 ( yeah i'm low), haste 80, arPen 100 and all buffs/debuffs/talents/glyphs that would improve dps except bloodlust. These are not my actual stats but should be close once i start to resocket/enchant for dps.

Rannasha · 01/05/09, 7:26 AM

You're already at 45% crit, adding 1% crit would (in the most naive estimate with 100% crittable damage, a 2.0 crit-multiplier and no on-crit effects) improve your DPS by only ~0.7%. On the other hand, your haste is almost zero, which means that adding 1% has a larger impact than if you'd have been at 45% haste already. Add to that the fact that you need less haste rating than you need crit rating per 1% (~33 vs ~46, see the combat ratings thread in the general class mechanics forum) and the numbers you posted are quite reasonable, qualitatively speaking.

Carlos · 01/05/09, 9:18 AM

Toskk has made a posting to discuss haste for cats in the discussion part of the wiki.

Hi Osevin,

I'm afraid that in this one case I'm going to have to claim privileged information on that. I haven't been given permission to discuss that particular source, although I can vouch that it is official. There are a few blue posts about Omen of Clarity mechanics, however be wary as several of them are actually incorrect.

The new mechanic of Omen of Clarity is very specific. It's a hard coded 5.83333% chance on white hit (represented in game as 3.5/60).. in short, your attack speed doesn't have anything to do with the proc chance on Omen of Clarity now. Here's how it works in effect:

Let's say you have a 5% overall miss+dodged chance, and a flat 1.00 attack speed.

With a 5.83333% chance on white hit to proc, it takes an average of 17.14 (1 / 0.0583333) landed white attacks to proc.

With a 5% overall miss+dodged chance, it now requires ~18.045 white attacks to proc.

Effective Omen of Clarity proc rate with 5% miss+dodged and zero Haste: 3.325 PPM

Now let's give ourselves 20% Haste (i.e. Windfury), dropping our attack speed to 0.83333 (1 / 1.2).

18.045 white attacks * 0.83333 seconds per attack = ~15.037 seconds to proc, or 3.990 PPM.

Does that make sense?

Source: The Druid Wiki ToskksDPSGearMethod discussion Armor Pen vs. Haste...

iammrfluffy · 01/09/09, 3:54 PM

I have been playing around with RAWR 2.1.6 and the best DPS number i could come up with was 3023 dps points. Anyone else have any better luck? I am using a mangle spam rotation and wondering if i have finally come up with best gear set up.

-fluffy

• Melthu · 01/09/09, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by iammrfluffy

I have been playing around with RAWR 2.1.6 and the best DPS number i could come up with was 3023 dps points. Anyone else have any better luck? I am using a mangle spam rotation and wondering if i have finally come up with best gear set up.

-fluffy

That's extremely low. Do you have the proper talents, buffs, and rotation all checked?

CagedShogun · 01/09/09, 7:02 PM

After a few weeks of reading post and comments I've been tinkering with my build. I am straight cat dps set for PVE due to my guild having a large number of tanks already. I'm still in the process of changing out my 16 agility gems for 16 strength gems. They sell for around 175g so its costly to replace the 150g agility ones already socketed. My guild is extremely strict about having proper enchants and the best rep enchants(hodir rep). No matter how good the gear is you must have it enchanted. With the GM of the guild being a druid, I am running into a lot of conflict with him as I disreguard his advice and do what I've read on here. Even though my dps has climbed from around 10th in a 25man raid all the way to the top 3. With certain fights taking the number 1 spot(5700+ on thadius). So this lead me to a few questions:

1) My gm refers to rawr all the time but for some reason I cant get it to work. Are most of these stats,advice based upon rawr's calculations? If so, why would he still be telling me to stack agility over strength?

2) AS far as my enchants go, should I be replacing my +20agility on gloves for straight AP? Should I go back to +35agility on my staff over the 85ap from greater savagery(massacre is way out of my price range especially since my staff is more geared towards tanking).

3) I need names. I need names of other feral cat dps'ers who have stuff properly enchanted,gemmed etc. (not really a question but more of a request)

This is my first post on this forum and I've noticed that there are links to the armory for each poster. Not sure if mine will show up since it has asked me for this information about a dozen times now? My name is CAGEDSHOGUN on uther if it doesn't show. Thanks.

Mysticum · 01/09/09, 8:46 PM

1) Strength is better, hands off. Rawr will tell you this as well, since I can't imagine any gear benefit from agility more than strength.

2) You can check Rawr for the correct answer here as well. Crusher is better than 20 agility, and 85 AP is better than 35 agility.

3) Mysticum is his name. PvP gear on armory atm though.

Valerian · 01/09/09, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mysticum

1) Strength is better, hands off. Rawr will tell you this as well, since I can't imagine any gear benefit from agility more than strength.

Agi does help keep your cycle more constant in regards to critting more. While Str is slightly better overall, the difference between all Agi gems and all Str gems is going to be fairly small compared to the human errors/RNG you make in your cycle. Agi can help shore this up a bit. Once you're fairly comfortable you're probably better off using Strength though as most of the calculators say.

Mysticum · 01/09/09, 9:48 PM

I'm not a big fan of stacking agility over strength, even though I do like crit like a madness. The AP loss is simply too big, especially for a JC (81 str compared to 81 agility only on the three JC gems). But sure, it does help in the cycle, but even too lesser geared people, I think str would be the better outcome in the end. Human errors is a big factor of course, but get used to your own numbers a bit. Train a lot on the boss dummies, it really helps!

And CagedShogun, I really recommend Feral Swiftness in your build. Movement speed is important on a various numbers of bosses, and it's a huge benefit to be able to move swiftly between boss elements.

Boevis · 01/10/09, 10:00 AM

With my gear (10880 ap, 54% crit, 149 hit, 108 expertise, 413 haste, 62 arp)
Rawr rates the following for DPS (parenthesis are AP equivalence)
Str: 1.17 (2.39)
Agi: 1.03 (2.10)
Hit: 1.24 (2.53)
Exp: 1.24 (2.53)
Haste: .77 (1.57)
ArP: .69 (1.41)
Crit: .66 (1.35)
AP: .49 (1)

ToskksDPSGearMethod Rates them the following
Str: 2.332
Agi: 1.9885
Hit: 1.8402
Exp: 1.8402
Haste: 1.4176
ArP: 1.71
Crit: 1.2803
AP: 1

Now, because you get double AP per item value, anything with a value under 2 is worse than gemming for AP. I'm not going to try explaining the massive discrepancies for Hit/Expertise, but what's fairly clear is that Str > Agi in both cases, so regardless of which is more accurate in terms of the Missed Special cost to DPS, gemming for Str is going to be your best, solid bet.