I think it's been pretty definitively proven that we get very little out of haste, but 15% haste might open up enough of a higher chance to proc Clearcasting to be better than 4.36% crit from Wild Magic?
While haste is our worst stat, it's not bad. Even if you were comparing 200 ArPen to 500 haste, the haste would win.
Edit: Check stat values at FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)
In the FeralbyNight thread nightcrolwer says (in regards to tier gear): "Tier bonus: Use 2T7 (helm, shoulders), then use 2T7 (gloves, legs) +2T8 (helm, shoulders), then use 4T8 (helm, shoulders, gloves, elms)."
But I was wondering just how important is our 2T7 bonus is? Personally I feel a lot "safer" using it in the event I get an unlucky string of non-crits, and if I get a string of crits I can manage to work in a ferocious bite without having to risk my SR and rip wearing off. Dropping the 2T7 bonus I find SR and rip's durations clipping each other so I have to use the energy to refresh SR more often. I might just be out of practice though because on a dummy I don't have a manglebot so that might be part of my problem.
I don't have the helm unfortunately so I'm thinking that I'll just go from [Chestguard of the Recluse] back to our tier [Valorous Dreamwalker Raiments], but I was wondering if the set bonus ends up being a bigger upgrade than the stats between the two. The only problem is I drop under the exp cap by 1% which I read isn't a big deal but I still don't understand fully why that is the case. (I know the energy back from Primal Precision has something to do with it, but I still can't figure out / find a post on why ferals can afford to neglect hit / exp)
Looking toward when I get the T8 shoulders/helm I don't know if it'll still be worth going back down to the pants and gloves if I am using uld25 pieces in those slots. So I figure if I can get used to playing without the T7 set bonus (if it's a huge dps increase) it'll get me ready for when I drop it for the 2T8 bonus.
use 2T7(gloves, legs) +2T8(helm, shoulders) (if you don't overcap hit/exp otherwise mix match the 2 tier to avoid overcapping stats, is it the difference with rawr? Do you overcap expertise otherwise?). As for the improvement from 2+2 to 4t8 it exist but is minimal and mainly due to the stat increase on those items. As for exp/hit cap you can found a good discussion about it here (just read the full discussion):
I had a discussion with Mijiae, Allev and a Civilian about hit/expertise because in a previous version of FBN simulator (before I opened a topic for it) I used to rate hit/exp very high and they helped me with both good argument and code review to find a lot of bug and missed mechanincs about it.
Last edited by nightcrowler : 05/19/09 at 12:19 PM.
Wow, so the 2T7 bonus is that big where even going from 2T7-2T8 it's minimal. I think my problem was I was getting too hung up on the fact I'd been attached to being hit capped and in the pants / gloves slots I have [Leggings of the Honored] and [Gloves of the Stonereaper]. I only barely overcap exp my only problem is right now my exp is undercapped and using the gloves / pants I drop quite a lot of hit.
Personally the main reason I want to fight going back down to 2T7 is I was hoping to get up to the gear level where armor pen is better than agility and those gloves would have helped with that. Also I was going to end up dropping a massive amount of hit.
After reading that thread you linked (thanks for that by the way, huge help on understanding hit/exp and why it isn't as good for us as for others) I feel more comfortable about dropping my hit or expertise.
The only thing though is I still don't understand is WHY 2T7 is so great. In practice I feel like if you get your rotation down aside from some hiccups here and there (string of non-crit, etc) the extra 4 seconds is just breathing room.
I suspect it has something to do with you end up refreshing rip more often leading to energy loss over a longer fight, also leads to less chance for FBs and whatnot.
The only thing though is I still don't understand is WHY 2T7 is so great. In practice I feel like if you get your rotation down aside from some hiccups here and there (string of non-crit, etc) the extra 4 seconds is just breathing room.
I suspect it has something to do with you end up refreshing rip more often leading to energy loss over a longer fight, also leads to less chance for FBs and whatnot.
Pretty much that. A 4-second shorter rip means you have to spend more CPs on refreshing rip, which means fewer opportunities to do FB. Assuming that you're shooting for a SR->Rip->SR->Rip->FB kind of cycle, this means in practice that you're going from 22 to 26 seconds to get the CPs needed for a 5CP Rip and 5CP FB. 10 CPs in 22 seconds is pretty hard to obtain, but 10 CPs in 26 is more manageable.
This, incidentally, is why I think the 4pT8 is going to be so good; it allows much tighter cycles and more CPs spent on FBs.
Biggest effect of ditching Rip length for SR length is the fact that it's a huge boost for rapid target swaps. Certain fights come to mind with a boatload of those.
I tried using search function, but it didn't give me any results.
I've seen many guilds using bear tanks to solo tank the Thorim hardmode encounter. Afaik the def skill vs wep skill determines crushing blows, it has little to do with crit chance, so I can't seem to find a reason why druid tank is the ideal for it and what is his gear choice for the fight?
There are no crushing blows in raids. Unbalancing strike allows the tank to be crit, as it reduces defense skill by 200, which increases crit chance on the tank by 8%. The gear choice would be pvp gear, I assume, as 624 resilience is sufficient for crit immunity through unbalancing strike (assuming 3/3 survival of the fittest, no defense on gear).
About 2t7, the bonus is also giving you 4 more seconds to get another Shred. At times of low crit strings (or simply me being bad and hitting the wrong thing), it's been hard for me to get all 3 shreds, keep up mangle, rake, and SR, those 4 seconds have been worth 8 seconds a couple times.
I'll probably post something in the Feral Tanking discussion as soon as I get the gear 100% worked out, but likely the best method for Thorim involves either 2 Feral's or a DK and a Feral. Ignoring our ability to reach -13.6% crits through resilience, the Barkskin Glyph pretty well trivializes Unbalancing Strike especially if you wear the 4t7 (yes, I'm thinking of dusting off the other peices and regemming for tanking). With consistent timers on Unb now, it would be a simple thing for you to Barkskin as you got hit, throw on another cooldown (I'm fond of making spreadsheets to time my cooldown usage so I always have something coming off cooldown when I need it) and then once it's over, have the 2nd tank taunt and use their cooldowns.
How do I find out *exactly* how much dodge I have in bear form? Maybe I'm a bit confused, but whenever I roll my mouse over "Dodge" stats, it shows a number yet it also says (Before Diminishing Return) - which I figure it means the real dodge % is lower than that.
OK, I have been reviewing the different feral threads in here to piece together an ArPen strat for someone who is not yet BiS. I believe that the correct strategy is to equip one of the ArPen trinks (MR, GT) and stack ArPen so that you are at 100% with the proc. I understand that the cap is now 100%, which is equal to 1231 ArPen rating at level 80. I understand that the MR tooltip reads a 612 ArPen proc but that the actual proc is 665. This leaves 566 ArPen rating to shoot for with gear/gems.
(1) Am I correct that someone with MR would shoot for 566 ArPen rating through gear/gems?
(2) Why are we ignoring Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire? (Or are we?) Is the cap independent of these?
(3) The GT proc seems to match with the tooltip at 612 ArPen rating - Grim Toll - Spell - World of Warcraft - so should I shoot for 619 ArPen from gear and gems if I equip GT?
I can't seem to find a reason why druid tank is the ideal for it and what is his gear choice for the fight?
My guild uses me to soak Thorim the entire second phase because it's just a single target to spam-heal. When Thorim's Lightning Charge is buffed high enough that he's swinging for 14k+ per hand, having a druid with an extra 7k HP and more cooldowns to rotate (Barkskin on a 1m timer, SI+Glyphed FR, two trinkets) seems easier to heal, despite the chance of being crit. The healer-lag when the tank is switched can result in quick tank deaths (similar to Brutallus - you really need to pre-heal the tank before the taunt or else he'll get smoked before a single cast can land).
Gear wise, I've had success with pure stam-stacking and using Berserk immediately when he enters the Arena to get a decent threat lead. That said, I suspect none of this applies to hard-mode.
There are no crushing blows in raids. Unbalancing strike allows the tank to be crit, as it reduces defense skill by 200, which increases crit chance on the tank by 8%. The gear choice would be pvp gear, I assume, as 624 resilience is sufficient for crit immunity through unbalancing strike (assuming 3/3 survival of the fittest, no defense on gear).
That is wrong unless there has been a recent hotifx. Crushing blows can occur if the Mob has 20 Weapon skill over base defense after -defense modifiers. This occurs during Unbalancing strike and we have had our bear tanked crushed under its affect.
That is wrong unless there has been a recent hotifx. Crushing blows can occur if the Mob has 20 Weapon skill over base defense after -defense modifiers. This occurs during Unbalancing strike and we have had our bear tanked crushed under its affect.
In Burning Crusade, crushing blows used the base defense skill as shown in the skills pane, before modifiers such as gear, talents, and buffs. That doesn't mean it's necessarily true in Wrath, but we've never had a tank crushed in 6 heroic runs and 10 normal runs (I just checked the logs).
How do I find out *exactly* how much dodge I have in bear form? Maybe I'm a bit confused, but whenever I roll my mouse over "Dodge" stats, it shows a number yet it also says (Before Diminishing Return) - which I figure it means the real dodge % is lower than that.
OK, I have been reviewing the different feral threads in here to piece together an ArPen strat for someone who is not yet BiS. I believe that the correct strategy is to equip one of the ArPen trinks (MR, GT) and stack ArPen so that you are at 100% with the proc. I understand that the cap is now 100%, which is equal to 1231 ArPen rating at level 80. I understand that the MR tooltip reads a 612 ArPen proc but that the actual proc is 665. This leaves 566 ArPen rating to shoot for with gear/gems.
(1) Am I correct that someone with MR would shoot for 566 ArPen rating through gear/gems?
(2) Why are we ignoring Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire? (Or are we?) Is the cap independent of these?
(3) The GT proc seems to match with the tooltip at 612 ArPen rating - Grim Toll - Spell - World of Warcraft - so should I shoot for 619 ArPen from gear and gems if I equip GT?
Sunder and FF are applied independently from ArP. Your ArP reduction is applied to the modified armor (possibly capped). So, these debuffs define the scale of the point-for-point value for ArP. Your overall DPS will be better when the debuffs are up, but your ArP will be worth more when they are not.
1231 rating at 80 is actually like 99.95% reduction, but 1232 will put you over 100%. Also - going over the cap on proc isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you need to be careful how much you go over (similar to hit/exp).
In Burning Crusade, crushing blows used the base defense skill as shown in the skills pane, before modifiers such as gear, talents, and buffs. That doesn't mean it's necessarily true in Wrath, but we've never had a tank crushed in 6 heroic runs and 10 normal runs (I just checked the logs).
My suspicion is that if you can be crit you cannot be crushed unless something really huge happens (like Amanitar's debuff in OK). However, if you have crit immunity but your defense is lower than the 20 points (or 16), crushings can occur. There have been enough reports about crushes on Thorim to not entirely discount it.
In Burning Crusade, crushing blows used the base defense skill as shown in the skills pane, before modifiers such as gear, talents, and buffs. That doesn't mean it's necessarily true in Wrath, but we've never had a tank crushed in 6 heroic runs and 10 normal runs (I just checked the logs).
You have to be facing a mob 4 or more levels higher than your base defense - debuffs (aka 20 weapon skill higher) to receive crushing blows. Thorim is the only really good example of the defense debuff in raiding atm iirc.
My suspicion is that if you can be crit you cannot be crushed unless something really huge happens (like Amanitar's debuff in OK). However, if you have crit immunity but your defense is lower than the 20 points (or 16), crushings can occur. There have been enough reports about crushes on Thorim to not entirely discount it.
I tested this with the Disgusting Oozeling a while ago. Given the debuff from the pet (-20 def) and a set of gear with no additional defense, I pulled a few lvl 80 mobs and received crushings.
I'm guessing they just bumped the 15 weapon skill difference up to 20, so in any case where you have a mob 4 levels higher than you (with defense skill at max and no additional debuffs) or where you have a debuff that puts you at or below [(mob level * 5) - 20] defense, you will be crushed.
I found an old blue post stating that no defense beyond your level max (level * 5) will be counted towards crushability. However, given the oozeling debuff (-20 def) and enough defense from gear to make up for it, you won't be crushed.
You have to be facing a mob 4 or more levels higher than your base defense - debuffs (aka 20 weapon skill higher) to receive crushing blows. Thorim is the only really good example of the defense debuff in raiding atm iirc.
I know - I was checking Thorim logs specifically. If crushes are possible with -200 defense, then either the chance is monumentally small or there is some particular reason why our tanks do not get crushed, because again, there wasn't a single crushing blow in 16 Thorim kills. I am seeing normal hits after unbalancing strikes, so crits aren't pushing crushes off the table, at least not in the usual manner.
I know - I was checking Thorim logs specifically. If crushes are possible with -200 defense, then either the chance is monumentally small or there is some particular reason why our tanks do not get crushed, because again, there wasn't a single crushing blow in 16 Thorim kills. I am seeing normal hits after unbalancing strikes, so crits aren't pushing crushes off the table, at least not in the usual manner.
While I haven't found Thorim to crush me, I believe that's either because the other tank is really good at taunting. Or because they made Thorim unable to perform crushing blows (maybe it has something to do with a boss always being 3 levels higher than you, so if your defence is reduced, they will still be calculated as only 3 levels above you).
The adds in the fight most certainly can crush you after an unbalancing strike.
0:03'16.782 Thorim Unbalancing Strike hits Halmmar for 8930 Physical. (1757 Absorbed) #669353
0:03'16.782 Halmmar is afflicted by Unbalancing Strike. #669354
0:03'16.797 Calexico Holy Light heals Halmmar for 16726. (Critical) (7796 Overheal) #669358
0:03'16.797 Dark Rune Commoner #44 melee swing hits Halmmar for 348 Physical. (Crushing) #669364
Looking through all of my logs from the last Ulduar clear, I didn't get crushed by a single boss. Fairly safe to say that even with -200 defense, crushing blows are disabled for bosses (though the above by Halmmar indicates that is not necessarily true of trash)
Two short kitty-related questions:
1) How do you deal with the discrepancy between the stat-weights of RAWR versus those by feralbynight and Toskk and wich model and why do you follow?
2) I am often find myself in a position where I need to explain why I am neither hit nor expertise-capped even to the point where my current raid-slot is/was in danger. ("But Tun from Ensidia does 8k dps and he sockets hit and you socket Agi and only do 6k!!!!!11")
To explain those questions a bit further, for those interested:
add 1):
Rawr does not explain why and how its Kitty-model works, thus I cant check if it fits my play style / if there are errors in it. The suggested stat-weights changed with every new sub-version of it to the point that even with not changing any of my "wish-list"-gear around the best stat changed from Str to Agi to ArP to Str again. So while it ultimately is more fun to play/work with rawr I now made my own spreadsheet with stat-weights from Nightcowlers threat and a mechanism to factor in being over the hit / expertise-cap.
add 2):
My current thinking is that because 35-45% of my damage comes from rake and rip (i.e. Bleeds) that once they have landed they constantly deal damage. Thus diminishing the value of hit while making stats that benefit both my normaly hitting attacks (shred, FB & auto-hit) as well as my bleeds more valuable. Is this correct?
Everyone who uses Rawr has to read the red text on the Relative Stat Values page. It tells you not to use the RSVs. Listen to the program you're using for advice!
Every time I use Rawr I discover a new situation where you can alter a single stat that shouldn't make all that much of a difference, and it changes the stat weights of everything. Take, for instance, fight length-- I click through from 300 to 280 seconds, and at one or two values, haste rating jumps to the top of the list. Rawr is a lot further away from being reliable than your other options (Toskk, FbN, SC). It's great for calculating raw gear stats, though.
Hit/expertise has a non-spreadsheetable value of not having to worry about messing up. This can conceivably improve things like situational awareness, as well as overall DPS if you are prone to shredding when your mangle didn't apply, etc. I can see that mattering in a world-first guild where literally every pull counts. Not knowing Tun or why he's socketing hit, though, it could simply be because hit is so good for other classes. Or he has people in his guild who make him socket hit, like your guild encouraged you to do.
The real explanation is as follows: you only lose 20% of the energy on a missed yellow attack, whereas caster classes miss 100% of their damage from a cast when they're missing hit. The penalty for missing an attack is pretty small. Also, white hits are far less important for us compared to most classes.
05/18/09, 12:40 PM
Similar Threads
