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02/10/09, 10:37 AM
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#421
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Inaiwae
I'd say MS is mandatory. We need crit to be able to fit FB into rotations more reliably. With cats gemming for strenght, i dont think you can skip 4% increase (that reminds me that i have my doubts about str > agi, i'm trying to make some simulations on my own but no results yet).
Feral Instinct would be an optional cat damage talent for me.
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I'm specced pure dps, with max FA, MS and FI.
Last night partway through our first attempt at heroic Patchwerk the RL said, "Grim go bear." I'm in full dps gear, no tanking talents and I'm taking Hatefuls. I died at 1%, we got him down, and I got a new belt.
If I respecced to add a touch of bear for survivability, what do I take and what do I drop? I'm thinking 3/3 PotP. I could drop FI but kitty swipe does obscene damage. If I dropped FA entirely, I could put a point into Survival Instincts and a point into either feral charge or to max iMangle.
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02/10/09, 10:59 AM
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#422
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Bald Bull
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Inaiwae, I think that once you get enough crit you don't need a ton more to smooth out anything. It may change your gearing choices (going for agi over strength and favoring crit rating) but it's not a make-or-break rotation changer like shredding attacks or KotJ is.
Grimcat, I'd drop feral aggression in a second. I wouldn't take imp mangle at all (as cat or anything else). Take natural reaction instead.
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02/10/09, 11:00 AM
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#423
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by triman
Honestly we are capable of huge numbers with fights around a minute. Full energy start, TF, Berserk, TF (with heroism/BL covering most of that time period). We fall off pretty quickly after that. Kinda makes us awesome at Heroic bosses heh.
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Yeah, what really gets me is a lack of any sort of "execute". I can't tell you how many times I'm right there with the mages and warriors on the meters, and then starting at 35-20% to dead, they suddenly sky rocket, completely leaving me in the dust.
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02/10/09, 12:04 PM
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#424
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by kalbear
Grimcat, I'd drop feral aggression in a second. I wouldn't take imp mangle at all (as cat or anything else). Take natural reaction instead.
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Dropping improved mangle won't make any difference for fights like Patchwerk or Maexxna. But when you can't risk a swipe and don't have the time to position yourself properly behind the mob, 3 levels of improved mangle means your manglespam should be significantly more effective.
If I dropped FA and the 2 levels of improved Mangle, I could get 3/3 PotP, 3/3 Natural Reaction and the last point for either SI or FC. Thick Hide would be nice but I've already got 32k armor in bear form. The goal is to maximize dps while taking enough tanking talents to increase survivability versus raid mobs.
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02/10/09, 12:31 PM
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#425
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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@Kalbear: why do you think that crit will be less important if you get "enough"? To me it seems that crit will always have the same value, since FB allows you to burn any number of extra combo points.
I guess the question is whether its better to go for crit and increase the damage portion coming from FB's, or to get enough crit to have smooth SR/Rip rotation and then focus on attack power (since APen, Haste and Crit do not affect bleeds). Bad thing is that crit and haste rating do not affect FB as well.
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02/10/09, 12:49 PM
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#426
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Von Kaiser
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It's less important once you have enough to maintain your rotation, and secondarily because the higher your crit chance relative to your AP, the better AP becomes in terms of marginal returns for DPS. It's certainly true that you'll get more FB opportunities when you're drowning in combo points--but your FB is also already critting most of the time (as you note indirectly), so again, the DPS return on crit continues to fall. Obviously more is better than less, but if you're choosing between two equal Ilvl pieces of gear, where one has Str and the other Crit, their relative worth depends on your current crit/AP ratio.
As a minor note, haste also generates combo points, assuming you have OoC (and why wouldn't you?), but not terribly well.
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02/10/09, 1:48 PM
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#427
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Grimcat
Dropping improved mangle won't make any difference for fights like Patchwerk or Maexxna. But when you can't risk a swipe and don't have the time to position yourself properly behind the mob, 3 levels of improved mangle means your manglespam should be significantly more effective.
If I dropped FA and the 2 levels of improved Mangle, I could get 3/3 PotP, 3/3 Natural Reaction and the last point for either SI or FC. Thick Hide would be nice but I've already got 32k armor in bear form. The goal is to maximize dps while taking enough tanking talents to increase survivability versus raid mobs.
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The only fight you should ever be in front of a boss is on Thaddius. If you have time to mangle twice, you have time to get behind the mob and shred.
Even a full cat spec should always have FC (and arguably SI). It lets you get back into the fight and not waste time running. Half my guild still breaks out laughing as they see me fly past them. Many fights benefit like Anub'Rekhan after swarm, Maexxna if webbed, Loatheb after spore, Gothik after gate goes down, Grobbulus after diseased, 4 horsemen transitions, Sapphiron after a tail swipe, Sartharion after flame wall, and plenty of trash.
Originally Posted by Broseph
Blizzard's talent calculator says Feral Instinct only affects swipe (bear). Is this an undocumented change in 3.0.9, or a tooltip error that has been there all along? I know it affected swipe (cat) yesterday...
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This is very interesting as currently "Swipe (Bear)" does not even exist. The bear version is still just called "Swipe". Maybe they'll fix that too.
Last edited by Mijae : 02/10/09 at 1:53 PM.
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02/10/09, 2:25 PM
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#428
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Mijae
The only fight you should ever be in front of a boss is on Thaddius. If you have time to mangle twice, you have time to get behind the mob and shred.
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I didn't mention anything about manglespam during boss fights.
Say you're doing Gothik, undead side. A mob is charging right at your healer. You take the time to get behind the mob and your healer is dead. Or how about Noth? The mages are blinking about and causing havoc. If you swipe you aggro too many mobs and die. You don't have a few seconds to get behind a moving mob for shred. Your only real option is to manglespam as fast as you can pound the keys.
In some fights it's not about maximizing dps, it's about doing whatever it takes to win.
Originally Posted by Mijae
Even a full cat spec should always have FC (and arguably SI). It lets you get back into the fight and not waste time running. Half my guild still breaks out laughing as they see me fly past them. Many fights benefit like Anub'Rekhan after swarm, Maexxna if webbed, Loatheb after spore, Gothik after gate goes down, Grobbulus after diseased, 4 horsemen transitions, Sapphiron after a tail swipe, Sartharion after flame wall, and plenty of trash.
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I've never once used FC on a raid. After reading your examples, I'm interested in trying it. I don't care if I look silly, I just want to get back to the fight ASAP.
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02/10/09, 2:57 PM
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#429
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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It's all probability Inaiwae. Our goal is 5, crit's give 2, misses give 0, hits give 1. Critting with all 3 attacks does nothing more than critting with just 2, ignoring the bonus damage, so the probability of 5 cp in 3 attacks doesn't go up as quickly.
I think, eventually we'll be seeing the return of the 4 CP finishers in the future because of absurd crit levels.
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02/10/09, 4:57 PM
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#430
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Grimcat
I didn't mention anything about manglespam during boss fights.
Say you're doing Gothik, undead side. A mob is charging right at your healer. You take the time to get behind the mob and your healer is dead. Or how about Noth? The mages are blinking about and causing havoc. If you swipe you aggro too many mobs and die. You don't have a few seconds to get behind a moving mob for shred. Your only real option is to manglespam as fast as you can pound the keys.
In some fights it's not about maximizing dps, it's about doing whatever it takes to win.
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It does not take " a few seconds" to get behind a mob. You are either chasing after it and are already behind it, or you are running at it and can easily get behind it in a tenth of a second extra than it takes to get to it. If you are in front of the mob and have time to attack twice, then you have time to move behind it for at least the second hit (the first one is generally always going to be mangle anyway).
If you are trying to save someone by killing a mob before it gets to them, sure you can mangle it first (then shred). If you happen to pull agro you can mangle again. If you are trying to save someone and 2 hits isn't going to kill it, you are usually better off going bear and taunting it anyway. I agree " some fights it's not about maximizing dps".
Mangle spam is never the best option unless you have agro (and then you are often better off going bear in a raid). I don't see any example you can give where you would want to stand still in front of a mob spamming mangle instead of either getting behind it or going bear.
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02/10/09, 6:33 PM
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#431
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Bald Bull
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@Kalbear: why do you think that crit will be less important if you get "enough"? To me it seems that crit will always have the same value, since FB allows you to burn any number of extra combo points.
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Because at some point extra CP don't really help your cycle. If you can reliably get 5SR/5Rip/5FB, any more CP are effectively wasted.
In any case, I don't think 4% crit for 5 points is absolutely required, and it's certainly not in the same ballpark as KotJ or shredding attacks are.
Say you're doing Gothik, undead side. A mob is charging right at your healer. You take the time to get behind the mob and your healer is dead. Or how about Noth? The mages are blinking about and causing havoc. If you swipe you aggro too many mobs and die. You don't have a few seconds to get behind a moving mob for shred. Your only real option is to manglespam as fast as you can pound the keys.
In some fights it's not about maximizing dps, it's about doing whatever it takes to win.
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In those cases you switch to bear. If you're that worried about a healer getting ganked and want to take one for the team, do it in bear form. That's probably best for the raid.
And in that case - where you want to manglespam as much as you can - imp mangle doesn't help you until you've cast your 3rd one. That's when you'd be able to get a 4th one off. So yes, in the unlikely case where you must mangle to attract the mob and can't afford for whatever reason to switch to bear and mangle that way, imp mangle is marginally better after 6 seconds of time.
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02/10/09, 10:16 PM
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#432
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Von Kaiser
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Has anyone done the math on non-5cp FBs? I keep wondering if its not about finding where I can sneak in 5cp FBs as much as I should be looking for where to FB regardless of how many cps I currently have. This also sort of gets to Kal's statement about there being a certain point at which cp generation is wasted (or less valuable). I'm not sure it can be wasted if we execute well (FB with <5cp just to make sure SR and rip do not drop) but I'm not sure of the math there.
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02/10/09, 11:09 PM
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#433
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by kalbear
Because at some point extra CP don't really help your cycle. If you can reliably get 5SR/5Rip/5FB, any more CP are effectively wasted.
In any case, I don't think 4% crit for 5 points is absolutely required, and it's certainly not in the same ballpark as KotJ or shredding attacks are.
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A continual 5SR/5Rip/5FB rotation will take 30-34 seconds. As you increase your CP generation, you reduce your cycle time and increase Rip uptime. Theoretically you could reduce it to 20 sec with a 3SR/5Rip/5FB. Of course, you would need to average over 1.5 CP every second for that.
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02/11/09, 8:32 AM
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#434
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Mijae
It does not take "a few seconds" to get behind a mob.
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You're right, it can take even longer.
Some mobs can charge. Charge means they're not where you thought they'd be. You move into position, the mob runs away, and you're left chasing after it. Mobs can also change their facing. The tank pulls, you move behind, someone gets aggro, you move again, the tank gets aggro, you move back. You waste enormous amounts of time getting into position and staying in position for a shred.
I won't even get started on the room full of oozes. Stay behind the mobs is really not advisable.
In my experience, trash pulls in Naxxramas are sometimes sheer chaos. Mobs are charging everywhere, flipping back and forth between targets, and occasionally dropping dead. When you've got a dozen mobs through your raid, saying "stay behind the mob" is like saying "stay dry in a rainstorm." Maybe it's not like that when you have Naxx 25 on farm, but for guilds that are breaking in it can be insane.
There were more than a few times last night when I couldn't even find the back of a mob to get behind.
So according to this thread: if I can't get behind the mob, in order to maximize my dps I should switch to bear form rather than manglespam. I am skeptical of this claim, but I will give it a shot.
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02/11/09, 8:41 AM
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#435
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Druid
Ravenholdt (EU)
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I think the bear form suggestions were related to your comments about mangle spamming on a mob that was going for a healer. In the case of mobs running wild through the raid on large trash pulls then those are surely the time to barkskin & start swiping.
Edit: Cat swiping that is, if you aggro a load of mobs doing this then go bear and continue to swipe. Then get some better tanks.
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