Feral questions? - Page 32

Deadmoon · 10/15/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Allev

Druids are worse at 2-3 target AOE than most other classes-- we don't see benefits to our DPS until we see 4 targets or more. We're clearly inferior to the small-AoE classes, including Blood DKs (all DKs?), warriors, ret pallies, and rogues; and classes that can apply good single-target spells (i.e. warlocks, SPs) also see benefits from managing multiple targets instead of one.

ToC's fights are biased against druid single-target DPS. You don't have time to get bleeds up on Gormok's adds, if you switch to them; if you AOE, you don't get a substantial increase in damage. You lose bleeds when Jormungars submerge. DPSing adds on Jaraxxus sucks for us, because they die too quickly. We don't good overall DPS unless we get into long-term DPS situations, which is exactly what Inaiwae is doing-- switching away from short-term AoE and establishing a long-term DPS cycle.

Finally, both 4th and 6th is "middle of the pack" rank-wise, and those tend to have only a few hundred DPS difference. While the rank looks different, I'm sure the DPS between one spot and the next is only 100-200 DPS in any case, which could be made up in single-target if WMO guilds would bring more multi-feral raids (looking at a selection of the top 10 guilds on any fight, you'll rarely see 2 ferals.)

Agreed.

ToC's fights aren't so terribly bad for feral single-target DPS, if the druid is allowed to actually perform single-target DPS.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Northrend beasts - 10/6/2009
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Northrend beasts - 10/14/2009

In our last two heroic Northrend beasts encounters, I have come in second and first in total damage.
On Gormok, I completely ignore snobolds, berserk as early as possible with almost full energy and item procs running (Berserking weapon/Idol of Mutilation/Darkmoon card: Greatness/maybe a Grim Toll). I'm generally top damage after Gormok, one of 1-5 players with 1 million damage done to that point.

On the jormungars, melees dps the moving Dreadscale at first, and ranged dps the stationary Acidmaw. After the first submerge, I berserk for the second time, and we bloodlust and focus down Acidmaw, which dies before submerging again. An enraged Dreadscale dies after 2nd submerge. Submerges, even though they allow dots to fall off, gives me a chance to regain energy. It's a net loss, but not a devastating one.

Icehowl gets my third berserk during his second wall crash.
If I do a good job of staying at max melee range, and don't get unlucky and get frozen too many times, I am generally one of the top damage dealers for this fight.

However, we're not at the point where I can do single-target dps on the other fights and still have a good chance at defeating the encounter.
Jaraxxus: I have to dps portals and adds.
Faction Champions: I CC the warrior.
Val'kyr Twins: Our strat involves nearly the whole raid burning through an opposite-color shield, and is thus far unstable and a bit RNG-dependent. Because our (ferals') burst damage spikes are largely blocked by a shield, it doesn't show up on parses, even though it is important to our success.
Anub'arak: We haven't gotten enough solid tries on this for me to comment, but I expect to be on adds like I am for Jaraxxus until this boss is on farm.

Edit: I'm the best geared cat on Tichondrius (I think) but my guild is not the most progressed, so there may be some bias there.
Edit: We have an arms warrior for Trauma, but I don't get Hysteria.

coldbear · 10/30/09, 4:09 PM

Can someone confirm that the only major cooldown synergies with respect to Berserk use is Hysteria and Shattering Throw?

Bloodlust/Heroism + Berserk obviously could lead to wasted energy or Clearcast procs, but are there no raid-wide short-duration-long-cooldown buff/debuff's other than Shattering Throw that a Feral DPS'er should watch or plan for?

Ja7us · 10/30/09, 6:52 PM

Hysteria/Shattering Throw are the only raid buffs/debuffs with major synergies with Berserk, but there are a ton of buffs that synergize with Hysteria/Shattering throw (read: bloodlust). For maximum DPS they should all be stacked together.

Aurochus · 10/31/09, 8:53 PM

Hey guys, I'm typically a resto druid with a boomkin offspec, but I would like to change it to feral. I'm going with a hybrid cat/bear spec with the goal of being primarily cat, for 25 and 10 mans, but with the ability to tank 5 mans and the occasional 10 man. This is the build I'm tentatively going to use: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm just curious on where you would put the remaining 8 points in order to have the least dps reduction as cat and the most benefit as bear. If I were going pure cat, I would do Feral Aggression and Improved Mangle. Pure bear would probably be Infected Wounds and either Feral Aggression or Thick Hide and Improved LoTP.

Also, assuming I have no warrior in the group, which talent will provide more damage mitigation with mostly iLvl226 gear: Infected Wounds or Thick Hide?

savantus · 11/01/09, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by Aurochus

Hey guys, I'm typically a resto druid with a boomkin offspec, but I would like to change it to feral. I'm going with a hybrid cat/bear spec with the goal of being primarily cat, for 25 and 10 mans, but with the ability to tank 5 mans and the occasional 10 man. This is the build I'm tentatively going to use: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm just curious on where you would put the remaining 8 points in order to have the least dps reduction as cat and the most benefit as bear. If I were going pure cat, I would do Feral Aggression and Improved Mangle. Pure bear would probably be Infected Wounds and either Feral Aggression or Thick Hide and Improved LoTP.

Also, assuming I have no warrior in the group, which talent will provide more damage mitigation with mostly iLvl226 gear: Infected Wounds or Thick Hide?

Being hybrid spec means you are sub-par on either one or the other spec ( not to mention your glyphs will favor one or the other).
5 mans the demand is always for healer or tank, since you already have a resto spec you are better off going fully either DPS or tank as other spec and then be able to an asset instead of a wasted raid spot.
You wouldn't expect some half-ass boomkin spec to compare on healing versus a tree, the same applies to tanking/dps.

If you insist on doing hybrid, put 2pts in imp lotp , put the other 6 pts in predatory instincts + imp mangle.
As those give more benefit to dps than whats left, and imp lotp is always good to have.
Unless the rest of the raid is under whatever gear-level you are using, you will be near the bottom of the dmg meter
, and you will take alot more dmg than pure tanks but your threat should be decent at least. Hopefully whomever you raid with can overlook that.

Morcrist · 11/01/09, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Aurochus

Hey guys, I'm typically a resto druid with a boomkin offspec, but I would like to change it to feral. I'm going with a hybrid cat/bear spec with the goal of being primarily cat, for 25 and 10 mans, but with the ability to tank 5 mans and the occasional 10 man. This is the build I'm tentatively going to use: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm just curious on where you would put the remaining 8 points in order to have the least dps reduction as cat and the most benefit as bear. If I were going pure cat, I would do Feral Aggression and Improved Mangle. Pure bear would probably be Infected Wounds and either Feral Aggression or Thick Hide and Improved LoTP.

Also, assuming I have no warrior in the group, which talent will provide more damage mitigation with mostly iLvl226 gear: Infected Wounds or Thick Hide?

This is what I would use based on your criteria. It has the most dps you can get while still being able to do like you said and tank 5/10 mans.
Hybrid Cat DPS/Tank Build

One thing I might do to help the tanking side is dropping Improved Mangle and getting 2/2 Leader of the Pack and 1/3 Infected Wounds. If your role is primary dps you're not going to be using Mangle much at all on most fights (you'll be shredding) so you won't be losing much dps. If you've got a trauma bot you'll use it even less.

Feral Aggression is a waste considering it's 5 points to maximize a move you don't always get to use.

Lose Natural Reaction. It's only a couple points of dodge.

Predatory Instincts is big. Make sure you get it. You're going to be critting about 50% of the time at that iLvl (at least) so that's like an extra 5% dmg (50% of 10%) for 3 talent pts.

16 pts in Resto guarantees the maximum benefit to your dps.

3 pts in Protector of the Pack guarantees the most efficient benefit to your dmg reduction (3 pts for 12% dmg reduction compared to 3 pts for a 10% armor increase ~= a lot less than 12% dmg reduction).

You're going to need a good healer if you tank with this build but your cat dps will be almost totally maximized (except for ferocious bites). By limiting your tanking to 5 mans and an occasional 10 man you should have no problems assuming a competent group (i.e., don't expect to carry a group due to your awesome tanking abilities with this build - heh).

If you had to sacrifice some kitty dps (say by dropping Master Shapeshifter) for some more tanking ability definitely get Infected Wounds. Reducing a target's attack speed by 40% is huge compared to reducing it's damage by a couple %. If it hits for 10k every 2 seconds, or 5k per second you've just saved yourself about 1.5k per second in damage (10k every 2.8 seconds). To get the same savings (3k dmg) from armor alone would take a 30% damage reduction.

Hope this helps you make up your mind.

Cluey · 11/01/09, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by Morcrist

If you had to sacrifice some kitty dps (say by dropping Master Shapeshifter) for some more tanking ability definitely get Infected Wounds. Reducing a target's attack speed by 40% is huge compared to reducing it's damage by a couple %. If it hits for 10k every 2 seconds, or 5k per second you've just saved yourself about 1.5k per second in damage (10k every 2.8 seconds). To get the same savings (3k dmg) from armor alone would take a 30% damage reduction.

Hope this helps you make up your mind.

Just noting that the infected wounds debuff is a 20% slow not a 40% one, the same as all the tank classes get.
I disagree with a few of your choices but for heroics it won't matter, I have tanked them with my cat spec and gear. The main thing I miss tanking heroics, or any trash, is the Glyph of Maul.

The spec I use for most of my tanking is this one. I'm not one of our main tanks so I use a hybrid build. Having said that I have used this build to tank every boss in 25 man Naxx, Ulduar and TotCr, this includes things like Steelbreaker 25 man before we out geared it, one of the tanks couldn't stay connected and I forgot I didn't have a full tank spec! For the initial Steelbreaker learning I had a full tank spec.

A friend who mainly does ten mans used this spec as his feral one, paired with a resto spec, to tank or cat through Ulduar ten. He used it for their General Vezax Hard mode kills tanking the Animus and and on Steelbreaker if he wasn't healing, this was all done while the group was pushing for server first ten man hard modes and Glory of Ulduar raider with no 25 man gear.

As for what is best for you Aurochus, that is something you will have to work out.
I have tanked all of TotGC ten man with this build, I used a full tank build while we learnt Anub but since then this build has been fine. I change glyphs a lot though, if the fight has periods where I can contribute to DPS and doesn't have multiple targets for tanking I will use the Rip glyph instead of the Maul one.
Depending on what your ten man group consists of could also affect how you glyph and spec, having an arms warrior is very nice and makes skipping Improved Mangle very easy to do. If you always have a DK slowing the mobs attack speed you can drop infected wounds too.

The Predatory Instincts, King of the Jungle and Primal Gore talents are the ones which do the most for cat DPS. Using a full tank spec as a cat is an exercise in frustration, no energy gain with Tigers Fury makes cycles painful and even solo play is noticeably slower without PI and KotJ.

Pelf · 11/01/09, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Deadmoon

Agreed.

ToC's fights aren't so terribly bad for feral single-target DPS, if the druid is allowed to actually perform single-target DPS.

[...]

However, we're not at the point where I can do single-target dps on the other fights and still have a good chance at defeating the encounter.
Jaraxxus: I have to dps portals and adds.
Faction Champions: I CC the warrior.
Val'kyr Twins: Our strat involves nearly the whole raid burning through an opposite-color shield, and is thus far unstable and a bit RNG-dependent. Because our (ferals') burst damage spikes are largely blocked by a shield, it doesn't show up on parses, even though it is important to our success.
Anub'arak: We haven't gotten enough solid tries on this for me to comment, but I expect to be on adds like I am for Jaraxxus until this boss is on farm.

Getting the raid leaders to understand what feral strengths and weaknesses are is pretty important, I've found. The ferals (we have two, one of which [the not-me one] tanks/dps probably 60/40, give or take) have different jobs than everyone else in some of these fights like Deadmoon was mentioning.

Beasts: Ignore snobolds for Gormok. On jormungars, everyone is on the stationary to start, then after the first submerge we split off into physical/magical. Physical ends up on the stationary. I'm getting better at timing my CP usage to make sure I have no points on them before they submerge. Icehowl is icehowl -- the pro melee attack from max melee range and don't get tossed.

Jaraxxus: Ferals switch for Portal/Volcano, but switch back afterward without following up on the adds. Usually just long enough to resume the rotation after Rip falls off.

Twins: We're using the cheese-the-door strategy. Everyone's on the same person the whole time, though my DPS does suffer due to being unable to use Berserk for as long as 3 special abilities into the fight.

coldbear · 11/17/09, 7:20 PM

Considering using [Idol of Perspicacious Attacks] over Idol of Mutilation for Heroic Anub'Arak, but as of right now I'm thinking the extra damage per swipe is outweighed by the extra crit chance and AP from all the Agi on Idol of Mutilation. Can someone confirm or deny?

Not really considering idol-swapping as last I saw it was more of a dps loss than gain.

EDIT: Never bloody mind. Seems as of 9 months ago it did not affect Cat (Swipe). If this is wrong I'd love to hear.

coldbear · 11/23/09, 1:13 PM

1.

Heroic Anub'Arak.
About to burrow.
5CP and Rip is about to drop off a few seconds before he burrows.

How many seconds of Rip is approximately equal to an FB - i.e. at how many seconds left before the burrow should I stop hoping to refresh Rip and instead just hit one last FB?

I think I may be able to figure this out from our logs, but posting here just in case someone has a better answer or there's something that I'm just not seeing or am screwing up.

2.

Rawr3 (in closed beta still, mind you - I'm unable to get Rawr2 working via Mono) is finally telling me to gem for mostly ArPen. Would gemming for ArPen make a significantly disproportionate positive impact on my Swiping of adds in this fight? The conventional wisdom I believe says ArPen is very slightly better for fights with lots of adds, so if re-gemming everything would result in ~150 increased dps on a static single-target fight, I'm guessing this would be even better on an AOE-heavy fight?

Allev · 11/23/09, 2:28 PM

I chopped a segment out of your combat log (posted in the WWS thread) to illustrate the answer to your question.

[22:57:05.015] Anub'arak's Rip is refreshed by Coldbear
[22:57:06.259] Coldbear Rip Anub'arak *5099*
[22:57:08.260] Coldbear Rip Anub'arak 2250
[22:57:09.804] Anub'arak's Rip fades
[22:57:12.560] Anub'arak casts Pursued by Anub'arak on Arlyne

The answer is... Don't refresh Rip for his burrow. Anub clears his damage when he burrows (thus, why you have to reapply FFF when he emerges). This is probably so he doesn't enrage while burrowed, which would suck if he cast the life drain while burrowed but would be cheating if you could DOT him over the threshold while he was underneath.

But that just pushes back the question to, "how many seconds BEFORE he burrows is it a good idea to refresh Rip, since he clears it automatically?"

Again, I'll take averages from your log-- your FBs averaged 14k, your Rips averaged 4k a tick (more or less), which means 3.5 ticks of a rip are better than an FB-- so Rip with 8 seconds or more, FB with less.

Mielikinna · 11/24/09, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

2.

Rawr3 (in closed beta still, mind you - I'm unable to get Rawr2 working via Mono) is finally telling me to gem for mostly ArPen. Would gemming for ArPen make a significantly disproportionate positive impact on my Swiping of adds in this fight? The conventional wisdom I believe says ArPen is very slightly better for fights with lots of adds, so if re-gemming everything would result in ~150 increased dps on a static single-target fight, I'm guessing this would be even better on an AOE-heavy fight?

Yes, the armor pen would buff your swipe damage, making it very valuable for this fight.

Gurbl · 11/28/09, 5:36 PM

I was just wondering what you guys use to keep track of mangle/trauma on targets? What I'm looking for is something that can tell me the remaining duaration of the excisting trauma/mangle, just so I know that it's up at all times.
Besides that I'm also looking for a addon that can keep track of all relevant buffs/debuffs(for us ferals) from the different classes, so I can scream and yell when ever I'm missing horn or our warrior tanklet's sunder fall off.

First time poster so please tell if I'm posting in a wrong place ^^

edit: ty grutak, ill have a go with it

grutak · 11/28/09, 5:39 PM

Needtoknow is a very simple one. It allows you to specify what buffs/debuffs you want to see.

Tappin · 11/28/09, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gurbl

I was just wondering what you guys use to keep track of mangle/trauma on targets? What I'm looking for is something that can tell me the remaining duaration of the excisting trauma/mangle, just so I know that it's up at all times.
Besides that I'm also looking for a addon that can keep track of all relevant buffs/debuffs(for us ferals) from the different classes, so I can scream and yell when ever I'm missing horn or our warrior tanklet's sunder fall off.

I like power auras classic. You can do 'or' conditions like Mangle/Trauma
which will give you a timer for anyone's Mangle (Cat) or Mangle (Bear) or Trauma

Similarly Demoralizing/Vindication/Curse of Weakness if nice for bear form.

It can keep track of buffs, debuffs and cooldowns, with the option for 'cast by me' vs. 'cast by anyone'.

Mielikinna · 11/28/09, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gurbl

I was just wondering what you guys use to keep track of mangle/trauma on targets? What I'm looking for is something that can tell me the remaining duaration of the excisting trauma/mangle, just so I know that it's up at all times.
Besides that I'm also looking for a addon that can keep track of all relevant buffs/debuffs(for us ferals) from the different classes, so I can scream and yell when ever I'm missing horn or our warrior tanklet's sunder fall off.

First time poster so please tell if I'm posting in a wrong place ^^

edit: ty grutak, ill have a go with it

I'm a fan of the addon Badkitty.
BadKitty - Addons - Curse

babjengi · 11/28/09, 11:14 PM

I find myself falling behind in the dps these days, and I'm not sure why. My gear is actually really good. I have the ilvl 258 weapon, I'm ar pen soft capped, and I have about 12k ap and 55% crit raid buffed.

Recently, I switched 3 points out of feral aggression into feral instincts for the increased swipe damage for TOGC25 anub. Now this obviously impacts my single target dps, but it definitely helps in TOC with the many cleave type fights it has.

What is the priority in a rotation with swipe though? Obviously, I should keep savage roar up, but is maintaining rip or rake as important? I've tried to reason that with the 2 pc t8.5 bonus, the clearcasts would equal more swipes, but I figure that's minimal, considering one swipe is 45 energy, and it takes 35 energy for one rake.

Also, is there a better place I can take points from so I can get feral aggression back to 5/5 while keeping 3/3 feral instincts?

gobbles · 11/29/09, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by babjengi

I find myself falling behind in the dps these days, and I'm not sure why. My gear is actually really good. I have the ilvl 258 weapon, I'm ar pen soft capped, and I have about 12k ap and 55% crit raid buffed.

Recently, I switched 3 points out of feral aggression into feral instincts for the increased swipe damage for TOGC25 anub. Now this obviously impacts my single target dps, but it definitely helps in TOC with the many cleave type fights it has.

What is the priority in a rotation with swipe though? Obviously, I should keep savage roar up, but is maintaining rip or rake as important? I've tried to reason that with the 2 pc t8.5 bonus, the clearcasts would equal more swipes, but I figure that's minimal, considering one swipe is 45 energy, and it takes 35 energy for one rake.

Also, is there a better place I can take points from so I can get feral aggression back to 5/5 while keeping 3/3 feral instincts?

I've only just come back to the game so I appologise if I get a few things wrong.

If you want help with your dps we might need some more information. Some combat logs/parses would be very informative. Assuming you are also losing out in single target dps it may be you are clipping bleeds/wasting energy or letting DoTs drop off.

Personally, I dont bother capping out Feral Aggression. I just put any left over points in it. I just dont do enough damage with FB to warrant dropping either a movement speed increase or increased swipe damage.

As for tips with using swipe. It varies from fight to fight. On Anub, I find what works for me is to load up full single target debuffs and dots at the pull then pool energy to around 80% as the first set of adds are coming in. I pop Bezerk when AoE is called for and use any clearcasting procs to shred anub (assuming a manglebot/traumabot). I find I have more than enough combo points to keep most single target finishers up. I tend to focus on single target anub dps for the second lof of adds. If I use Bezerk for the first set of adds, I find it will be back up for the first set of adds after the burrow and so you can basically repat the process. I stack agility, however, so combo points are a little easier for me to come by, but I think the general idea should work for you.

If I recall correctly you need to have more than 3+ mobs for swipe dps to overtake your single target dps so unless you are working on Heroic Anub it is likely some other cleeve classes are going to have an advantage.

Fatstar · 11/29/09, 9:21 AM

Arpen does a great job 4 improved swipe dmg. So for Anub Hc you should break up your softcap/agility/MR gear und fill up with arpgear/sockets/BoV.

Allev · 11/29/09, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Wildebras

I only stack armor penetration gems. when not possible, I take crit and third choice is agility.
I use Savage Roar asap. It's much more economic then waiting for 5 cp's. (look how many seconds you get per cp) So: Rake, SR, shred and rip at 5cp.
sometimes I rip at 4 cp depending on the situation. If it looks I will not get the time to wait, I rip.

Stacking crit rating before agility is simply wrong. It doesn't get buffed by Blessing of Kings or talents, so it ends up being clearly worse than Agility. It can be your best stat on a yellow gem (instead of haste), but isn't better than Agility; it's just worth sacrificing the conversion for some set bonuses.

SRing immediately isn't necessarily "more economic". It's CP-efficient but energy-inefficient. Whether it's "more economic" depends on whether you FB a lot (more than you should).

I'm not sure about the 4 CP rip situations you're talking about, but I'd definitely also say the frequency of that should be exceedingly rare.

zirahe · 12/01/09, 5:53 AM

As stated in the 'Cat DPS guide for dummies', at around 400-500 ArP it becomes a better stat than Agi. I currently have 314 ArP, but with regemming I could reach ~550. I presume that regemming should increase DPS, but I want to make sure before I invest a small fortune.

So, should we regem to ArP as soon as we can get to a total ArP of 4~500 (including gems), or should we start using ArP as soon as we have 4~500 ArP without gems, with the gems adding to this?

I have run myself through simcraft and regemming to ArP seems to lower my DPS, but perhaps my method is faulted. I used simcraft to pull myself from the armory (./simc armory=eu,turalyon,Zirahe save=zirahe.simc) and used the 'gear summary' entries to model gear. To test how I would look after regemming, I reduced gear_agility by 224 and increased gear_armor_penetration_rating by 224. Using both optimal_raid=0 and optimal_raid=1, my dps after regemming was about 10-20 lower.

Comments about simcraft usage or thoughts about regemming are welcomed.

Gruturistic · 12/01/09, 6:58 AM

Regemming to reach 550 ArP would be barely worth it unless you have a Grim Toll / Mjolnir's, in which case you would end up in a very reasonable situation (185 or 238 to away from the softcap, depending on which of the 2 trinkets you have). I haven't seen the new 3.3 heroic 5man trinket modeled in detail, so you might not want to count on that at least for the time being.

Don't kill your other stats for the sake of stacking ArP, you will want to maintain a healthy crit rate or your combo point generation will suffer considerably, and you will have much less margin to squeeze FBs in... which is the only finisher benefiting from ArP.

Allev · 12/01/09, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gruturistic

Don't kill your other stats for the sake of stacking ArP, you will want to maintain a healthy crit rate or your combo point generation will suffer considerably, and you will have much less margin to squeeze FBs in... which is the only finisher benefiting from ArP.

This is a terrible way to think about the situation. FBs are nearly worthless post-4t8: it's a 100 DPS increase, or only 50 if you don't spec FA. And the more you veer into focusing on FBs, the more likely you are to do it too much and lose Rip uptime. In other words, it doesn't matter if your CP generation falls a little bit, since you'll have plenty of CPs for the "required" finishers.

Fatstar · 12/01/09, 1:21 PM

Just in theory, 66 (.6) % crit raidbuffed is nice for cb generation, because you have the chance of 2 of 3 hits being crits, which results in 5cb. Any additional crit would alter your damage but wouldnt (theoretically)result in more cbs.
You would alter your chance of getting your third cb style critically hit an gain a 6th cb which wouldnt add in for your finisher.

Till you reach this amount of crit (sorry for my english, dont know how to say that) agility is more important than arp, unless you really have a lot of arp or GT/MR.

Ja7us · 12/01/09, 1:55 PM

"In theory," more CP will always mean fewer specials needed for 5 cp. Just because 2/3 of your attacks crit on average doesn't mean that 66.6 is some magical value where CP generation from crits loses all value. The value of crit does, of course, diminish as the likeliehood of reaching 5 cp in 3 attacks increases, but shooting for 66.6 on the dot is just silly.