Feral questions? - Page 46

ìnbloom · 07/30/09, 5:01 PM

Does anyone know the PPM or internal CD of the 2 piece tier 8 set bonus?

nightcrowler · 07/31/09, 2:50 AM

@inbloom: No internal CD. 2% chance on every bleed tick (rake, rip, lacerate). So if you consider 100% rake and rip uptime there are in 60 seconds. 60/3 = 20 rake ticks and 60/2= 30 rip ticks or 60 ticks total. This mean 0.02*60 = 1.2 PPM on average, considering that it's pretty difficult to obtain 100% dot uptime it's more likely around 1 Proc x minute.

Pulsation · 07/31/09, 7:53 AM

I'm going to ask a new question here that i didn't find on this forum.

Does sunder armor and faerie fire count as Armor Penetration ? They both state "reduce armor bij ??%" and so does armor penetration. i looked it up and wowwiki says they count as armor penetration. Now if you have 5x sunder armor = 20% and faerie fire = 5% and you have a grim toll 49.69% then you already have 74.69% reduced armor of the target. now for the other 25.31% you'll need only 311.7 ArPen.

Can someone confirm if this is true or give me good answer why it's not true ?

Greeettzz

halmmar · 07/31/09, 9:52 AM

For starters ArPen is capped to 100% or some maximum value, which is less than the armor of a raid boss. Basically, FF/Sunder removes the portion of armor that ArPen can't.

Play with Simple ArPen calculator and see for yourself. You need ~50.5% ArPen with a Grim Toll proc, Sunder Armor and FF.

Pulsation · 07/31/09, 12:21 PM

Would you mind explaining me a alittle bit more about that ArPen calculator ?

These are my stats:

Gear 38.89%
5x Sunder Armor 20%
FF 5%
Hearty Rhino 3.2%
Elixir of Armor Piercing 3.7%
Grim Toll proc 49.7%

Now i don't know what all the other numbers mean, something says armor capped at 439 ArPen but i don't know what that suppose to mean cause i have 479 ArPen;

Pls a little help

Greettzz

Boevis · 07/31/09, 2:31 PM

First of all, FF and Sunder have nothing to do with the Armor Pen cap, only with effective armor (it's stupidly complicated, but hey it's blizzard)

I would ignore that website, because frankly it's wrong. Currently you cannot reduce a 10643 Armor (ie. Boss) target to 0 armor through any amount of Armor Pen unless the mob has Shattering Throw as well as Sunder Armor. It's discussed In the Ratings Thread quite extensively.

But for what you really need to know: The ArP Cap is 1232. Grim Toll gives 612 ArP when it procs, so you need 1232-612 = 620 ArP or 50.32% from Gear+Buffs to hit the soft cap. I should also point out that while Hearty Rhino is the best food to use, you should be using the Flask of Endless Rage instead of the Elixir of Armor Piercing, no matter what your Armor Pen is at.

Kalitse · 07/31/09, 3:04 PM

I have read that if you don't have either ArPen trinket then it's not worth it to gem for ArPen regardless of how much you have from gear alone. Looking at the numbers it seems logical but the source isn't that reliable so I wanted to get your opinions on it.
Thanks.

Edit: typo

kalbear · 07/31/09, 4:44 PM

I have read that if you don't have either ArPen trinket then it's not worth it to gem for ArPen regardless of how much you have from gear alone. Looking at the numbers it seems logical but the source isn't that reliable so I wanted to get your opinions on it.
Thanks.

It's still worth it depending on how much you can get. It's just not as worth it. If you don't have the trinket, then armor pen and aglity are going to be very, very close to each other in value from most models I've read. It really depends on what you favor at that point - larger potential burst damage, or more smooth rotations and higher combo points.

Pulsation · 08/01/09, 4:11 PM

But why is the Flask of Endless Rage better then Elix of Armor Piericing ? Cats have about 7k AP on average so i don't think that 180 attack power would give an increase in DPS. The Elixir of Armor Piercing does give an increase in DPS because if you need that elixir to hit the cap then it's much more valuable then only 180 AP. This is just how i think about the Elixir vs Flask subject.

Boevis · 08/02/09, 1:02 AM

There's nothing special about the Armor Pen cap other than "This is when you should stop getting more". Relative stat values still always apply when you're making gearing choices (elixir/flask is a gear choice). Armor Pen needs to be worth 4 times as much as AP for the elixir to be better than the flask (45x4=180), and simply put, it's not, at best it's 3 times better which still leaves it inferior.

Pulsation · 08/02/09, 5:41 AM

As you probably will now, ArPen gets better the more you have of it so the last few ArPen points really can make a difference. The 180 AP on the other hand i find useless and by comparing it by just multiplying it isn't really a good comparison don't you think ?

halmmar · 08/02/09, 11:04 AM

You forget that AP gets more valuable the more crit/haste/arpen/hit/exp you have. Even if you get tons of ArPen, an AP flask will be better than ArPen elixir.

Boevis · 08/03/09, 6:53 AM

Originally Posted by Pulsation

As you probably will now, ArPen gets better the more you have of it so the last few ArPen points really can make a difference. The 180 AP on the other hand i find useless and by comparing it by just multiplying it isn't really a good comparison don't you think ?

Actually, just mulitplying is a good comparison. I guess you didn't read everything I posted, Armor Penetration is never (bolded for emphasis) worth 4x as much as AP at this stage of gearing. This isn't a number I made up, this is based on FbN, Rawr, and Toskks. Mind you, I said "at this stage" meaning that in theory, at some level of gear, ArP does become greater than 4xAP, this happens around 12750 unbuffed AP with 61% crit (buffed) and Hit/Expertise capped and just under the ArP soft cap with a Mjolnir/DMG. With Comet's Trail/Dark Matter, and getting within 45 of the hard cap of ArP, the requirement drops to 9200 AP unbuffed and 59% crit. Still, pretty unreachable until maybe Icecrown.

As pointed out by Halmmar, AP still scales with your current ArP, Crit, Hit, Exp ... everything scales with everything else, just because it's only a 2% increase in AP, doesn't make it any less useful than other stats when it's given is such a large amount (remember, we spec into talents that give less than that)

Aolbrandr · 08/05/09, 10:27 PM

The new Idol of Mutilation, the triumph badge reward in 3.2 looks rather good for both tanking and dps. Is there any theorycrafting on whether or not this is the new bis for either dps or tanking? I'm using both shred and rip idols on and off trying to figure out which is better. I have vezax 25 idol but I don't need to mangle ever so I don't see any need for it. Could anyone give me some pointers on whats the current bis idol?

kalbear · 08/05/09, 11:06 PM

I did some theorycrafting on the tanking aspect, and it looks to not be as good as Idol of the Corruptor because of the lack of armor gain; the avoidance gain is minimal.

For cats, assuming it's always active it is best in slot. The 'assuming it's always active' is trickier; I don't know what the uptime is, and no one has tested it thoroughly.