Frenzi

The only problem with chain casting wrath though is it is extremely difficult currently to support it due to mana concerns. This is especially problematic currently due to the poor gear everyone is running around in. I found myself choosing SF over wrath even during a wrath eclipse purely because I was worried about going OOM.

 

Kuruk

Sorry to be so anally retentive but there are a lot of things that can be done at Level 80, so if this thread is about Moonkin Raiding Specs, a title like… “Moonkin Raiding Specs” for example would be clearer and more fitting.

Also – please look at the locked "Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion" thread (especially the end of it). A lot of questions are getting asked here that have been answered there already.

Frenzi - if your build is for 10-man raiding only, then you might want to take Improved Faerie Fire unless you always have a Shadow Priest in your group.

I would also drop Owlkin Frenzy (which is very situational) and get either DPS talents (Improved MF and Nature's Splendor I guess?) or more mana regen since you report it as an issue (Dreamstate).

 

Frenzi

I wanted a broader range of discussion than just talent specs. Alot of things effect our performance beyond a talent spec. Now people are accrueing experience at 80 I wanted to know what experience people were having with the class as a whole. For instance mana has been a major issue for me and several people advised me how to combat that problem and what the cause of it might be.

I agree that IFF is needed and I am respeccing again tonight to include it. Owlkin Frenzy can be utilised quite heavily on trash especially if AoEing. I quite often pull aggro on purpose on trash to get them to beat on me to proc OF to do additional AoE damage. It can be a risky strategy but it is one I have become quite good at and after playing a mage for so long having the armour to be able to worry less about mobs beating on you is a refreshing change. It also activates quite often during bosses and still feel it is of more use than IIS which will be the only thing I will be skipping with my new build.

 

dukes

Additionally to this, swapping Frenzy and CF for IIS and IFF will net you 6% crit (as long as you keep moonfire up) on Starfire. Taking Improved Moonfire instead of MS will also net you a decent damage increase, along with crit for mana regen on Moonfire. You're missing a lot of crit from talents, along with not having dreamstate. Natures splendor will also allow you to cast moonfire less often.

http://elitistjerks.com/966179-post1553.html <- this post has a basic napkin-style evaluation of the regen talents. Int and Spirit are currently lower for me than estimated in that, but it shows that Dreamstate is probably more worth it than Moonglow, mainly because it's always there (including while AoE'ing and moving).

 

Kuruk

Then something like "Raiding as a Moonkin." Otherwise you will start to get solo/PVP questions and the thread becomes very messy and you end up having to sift through lot of posts which are not relevant to what you want to discuss.

To add to what Dukes said above:

If you are taking IFF, then I would drop Owlkin Frenzy for it. Trash doesn't matter (it's not a challenge - the bosses are) and pulling aggro on purpose to proc it sounds quite insane. It's not only very risky, it must be extremely annoying for both the tanks and the healers.

I also don't understand why do you raise Improved Insect Swarm as an alternative talent. I might be mistaken, but I am pretty confident that both Improved Moonfire and Nature's Splendor are better talents than IIS and you have neither of those.

 

erragal

Improved Moonfire is not better than IIS, but the choice is usually between two points in moonglow or improved moonfire because they are required to advance up the tree. Most should be taking IMF as moonglow is our weakest mana talent and would only be maxed in truly awful raid makeups that do not support balance DPS very well at all.

You have to understand that moonfire is only going to be about 9-14% of your total damage on boss fights (Really dependent on how well you use FoN) as opposed to the combination of wrath and starfire which will likely be 55-70% of your damage depending on how heavily you utilize insect swarm. You also have to remember that you lose much of the benefit of Imp Moonfire with the Moonfire Glyph due to the 90% reduced initial damage.

Owlkin Frenzy shouldn't be taken for trash, it's taken because many boss mechanics deal raid-wide aoe damage that triggers it for a significant DPS increase. I've already found that it would be incredibly valuable on the Instructor Razuvious fight: regular raid-wide damage and an encounter which is made much easier the faster you can finish it.
EDIT: I see what you were responding to, and agree 100% that no one should be intentionally pulling aggro for OF procs. You're actually lowering your aoe dps because you're getting pushback on your first hurricane before OF procs, or you're waiting for a 15% proc to hurricane which is wasted DPS time. We're also not nearly as hardy compared to BC; due to the stam scaling on tanks our days as aoe tanks are numbered (And unnecessary as well).

For those looking at raiding specs, my armory should my current 10-man spec choice I used last night. After Monday in Naxx-10 I switched to only one point in eclipse as a nice benefit to DPS without reconfiguring my rotation around it in order to supplement my mana regen. I feel that Intensity and OoC are necessary in the 10-man instance due to less raid-wide buffs, and the mana stress some of the encounters have due to consistent Typhoon usage.

Unless you have an ideal group of Feral Druid + Shadow Priest, you're going to want IFF for ideal raid debuffs and I made the choice of skimping on eclipse for it as opposed to mana regen. These types of decisions are really dependent on your personal experiences and raid compositions; everyone needs to make their own spec decisions rather than relying on one ideal (Because there isn't one).

-

I really want to elaborate a bit on Typhoon. On the whole I believe we've dismissed this ability (And I'm one of the biggest offenders here) as mostly for PVP. After using it in heroics and Naxx-10 I've found Typhoon extremely good on both Anub'Rekhan and Maexxna for taking down the tiny adds as well as many heroic boss mechanis. I'm desperately waiting for the Typhoon Glyph that gets rid of the knockback for any type of benefit as the utility of an instant burst aoe is really amazing in 5 and 10-mans but the knockback is extremely frustrating. What really makes this ability shine is the range: we don't have to reposition to apply our instant burst damage. With some research I've found that Typhoon is the only cone with 36 yard range and has higher damage than any other cone burst ability; the ability to finish off swarms and lowish health aoe packs at range is something fairly unique to our spec. It works particularly well when triggering Seed of Corruption to apply significant aoe damage in a very short amount of time.

 

dukes

Further on Typhoon - it can proc direct damage effects such as the [Pendulum of Telluric Currents] proc (which I have yet to see proc off a DoT effect), and doesn't have a damage cap (anecdotal evidence from doing AV / raids on Ironforge pre-WotLK release). I've found it a really valuable spell - even if there were just a minor glyph to remove the knockback with no other effect, I'd use it so it would be more usable in 5 mans/trash.

Edit: To clarify, the reason I say it has no damage cap is backed up by the way it appears to be direct damage to each affected player, not a single calculation of total damage. I certainly haven't seen drop off on it anyway (doing 50k+ typhoons in Ironforge was quite fun).

 

Kuruk

Thanks for clarifying that. Wouldn't Moonglow be a better choice to advance down the tree at the beginning, when mana is a big issue?

And doesn't Improved Moonfire affect the damage of both the initial strike as well as the damage over time effect? Also - when you crit with Moonfire, does the increased crit damage only apply to the initial damage (in which case, the talent isn't really useful) or does it increase the damage over time component too?

Edit: To add on Owlkin Frenzy. Razuvius is just one encounter from many. Yes, most bosses have AOE effects but they should be avoided. OF is just a very random, uncertain talent. First you have to be hit and then it has to proc. Considering how many difficult choices need to be made, I think there are better available talents.

 

erragal

No DoT's can crit like you're asking, this is a basic game mechanic you definitely should know. It does affect the periodic damage but it is not multiplicative with the glyph. Unlike DK's, Spriests, and Affliction Locks we have no talents that give our dots crit scaling.

Most boss AoE effects aren't designed to be avoided, they're intended to put stress on the healers. The choices are solely dependent on the encounter, you want to tailor your spec for the encounters you'll be interacting with. Just look at the Sunwell encounters: Owlkin Frenzy is very easily more DPS than eclipse on several of those fights, and will proc on all of them.

Mana isn't always a huge issue and moonglow is the worst way to solve your mana issues. Mana talents have zero value unless you would run out of mana without them so it will take experience and calculations to tune your spec. You need to research a bit better in the locked WotLK thread as a lot of this info is in there with the numbers, as well as spreadsheets and simulations. But the key thing is this: tailor the spec for your situation and know the absolute value of each talent point.

 

Kuruk

I have researched this and I know that Moonglow is our least useful mana regen talent. However, we have to choose either Moonglow or Improved Moonfire in any spec, because otherwise we aren't able to progress further down the tree.

So my point was: As Improved Moonfire seems to provide very little DPS returns, wouldn't taking Moonglow make sense considering that mana regen will be a significant problem when you start raiding due to poor stats on gear?

And yes, the answer to that does depend on personal testing. If you are running out of mana without it, take it. If you don't, take Imp MF.

Edit: And Moonfire isn't a DoT. It's a combination of an instant damage spell and a DoT that's why the question about its mechanics. I assumed it might be different entirely, thank you for clarifying it isn't.

 

Buchla

can please someone answer m Question?

3/3 Improved Insect Swarm
Gives me 3% Crit for SF if i put MF on the Target.
If i understand this right i will get the 3% even if there is no IS on the Target right?

 

• Adoriele

Yes.

 

Buchla

Thank you !!! :-)

 

Carnacki

BTW, Adoriele are you going to host Squawk & Awe on Curse as well?

 

Marauding Master

Alright as I'm hitting 80 soon, I'd like to get topped off for Wrath. I'd like to know the following things as I can't find them anymore.

Spell Damage to Haste comparison. When does Haste deal more? I think it was around 2300 spellpower.
Hit. How much hit is needed to cap out?(With 2/2 BoP)
How effective is Crit?

 

• Adoriele

Doing a quick run of the calcs I made for 70, assuming full raid buffs and talents (i.e. 11% haste), haste reaches parity with Spellpower at 1942 SP, after which you'll want to equalize haste and Spellpower (note that, as with my old calcs, this only applies directly to straight SF spam, but as that's still our main nuke it's a worthwhile benchmark). Hit cap assuming 2/2 BoP and Misery/iFF is 262/3, add a Draenei and it's 236/7. Crit is still, DPS-wise, our least-effective stat, even counting Nature's Grace, mostly because of the heavy itemization penalty it has.

 

Gurth

As for spec i'm going for:

66/0/5

The regen talents in resto and master shapeshifter seems a bit too much talents demanding at the moment. With this kind of spec you get all the perks of the balance talents and the nice 10% extra int from furor. I think it's the most versatile spec especially considering 25 man raids, where regen isn't quite as important as you probably gonna have JoW, replenish, totems and bow.

Note: i took brambles cause i like extra treant damage. Not sure it is optimal or not, i had 3 spare points in the end and i wasn't sure about going for brambles, maxing out frenzy with an extra point in moonglow maybe, or even take nature focus for the extra pvp utlilty and the nice antipushback on wrath for those interrupting encounters.

 

Buchla

Hit is 17% for 100% Hit Chance.
SP gives you 3%
2/2 BoP gives you 4%

You will need 10% Hit from your Items.

 

thedopefishlives

I was going to say, Crit is fairly comparable to Haste on a point-per-point basis. Lower, yes, but not by a whole lot. Hit and spell power are still worth a fair bit more, though, at least from the numbers I've run.

 

Marauding Master

But with the Wrath/Eclipse heavy rotation we're forced to run due to our Starfire glyph getting nerfed, isn't there some kind of benchmark you'll want to hit with crit rating? I only had 24% Crit at 70 fully buffed and I felt like it wasn't enough.

 

thedopefishlives

Not really. Crit does provide some mana regen with the new Moonkin form mechanic, but far and away, your most powerful regen stat is Intellect. Also, we all know how RNG-dependent crit is as a DPS stat, which is why it's usually less valuable than stats such as spell power or haste. Obviously it's better to have more crit, but I wouldn't say there's really a "benchmark". It's a nice-to-have.

 

• Adoriele

Correct result, faulty logic. Crit's usefulness or lack thereof has nothing to do with the RNG. You'll have good days and bad days, yes, but ignoring Nature's Grace, Crit and Haste provide the exact same benefit in the long run: You multiply your DPS by 1+X%. Crit historically has had two factors against it: it costs about 1.7 times as much as haste to put 1% crit on an item, and you had incidental Crit on your gear and from intellect and talents, while you were starting at 0 with haste. The first case is still very valid. The second is also somewhat true (You move from about 14% incidental crit, 0 haste to about 27% incidental crit, 11% incidental haste), but moving things up the scale works to bring the two closer together. The only thing Crit had working to counter this effect is Nature's Grace, but that was never good enough to completely close the gap.

You also had to worry about the fact that IS doesn't scale with Crit, and Moonfire scales very poorly with it, though of course they also both scale very very poorly with Haste. Those two cases are even more problematic now. IS has finally gotten to the point where, glyphed, it's definitely positive-scaling WRT Starfire, making both it and Moonfire greatly increase the value of Spellpower, relatively.

[edit=Forgot I had a point I was trying to make]

With respect to a benchmark for crit, no there really isn't one. Adding crit lowers your expected time-to-proc for Eclipse, nothing more. There may be certain benefits from the simulator or Rawr which show that passing integral numbers of casts by adding crit changes the basic rotation some, but that's flawed in practice, as you'll never get that same integral number of casts consistently. If the simulator or Rawr is heavily basing its cast choices based on that, it mucks with the average case. You're always going to get more DPS by being adaptive, rather than trying to stick to a set rotation.

[edit2=Wow I'm bad at this]
Not soon. I'm not a huge fan of Curse in general, though I plan on taking a look at it again at some point and reevaluating. As for now, it's on WoWI and has found its way onto WoWMatrix (It's always odd when you get home and your addon updater updates the local copy of the addon you're writing...), so I figure it's probably getting enough exposure already.

 

Chimono

I feel as if balance has been way out done by feral...

I'll start by saying I am a TERRIBLE feral druid for dps, but I was a VERY good moonkin in Burning Crusade. I leveled feral till 79 and decided moonkin for tonight for shits n' gigs. Hah, at 1317 sp power my wraths were only hitting for about 1900...that's terrible in my honest opinion, not too mention in pvp I was getting my ass handed to me by almost everything. I feel like the moonkin day and age has died, I was pumping 1950 constant dps as feral unbuffed on a 70 target dummy at level 76, did I mention how bad I was at feral cat dps, I only got 2100 as moonkin with a maximal damage output spec. I don't know if it's because my crit dropped by a whole 8% or what but I'm really discouraged with what has happened and quite frankly I'm also very pissed off...mainly at the whole Death Knight ghoul transformation and anti magic bubble.

Back to feral I suppose to crit target dummies for 15,000...

 

Angelfire

@Adoriele/Dope - In the old thread you have supplied a relative table for comparing between +spellpower/Haste/Crit values, which was if I'm not mistaken that at 1400 +spellpower (I'm talking about level 70 of course) spellpower = haste in terms of benefit, and crit is worth about 60% of that (I hope I remember the numbers correctly).
I haven't been able to get some similar data from the above discussion.
I know the priorities on gear/gems/enchants should probably be +spellpower > Haste > Int > Crit > Spirit, but is this correct? And what are the relative values (1 spell power = 1.25 = 1.6 crit for example)?
Or is it too soon to give such numbers for 80?

 

Kuruk

Angelfire, you need to look harder. ;P Your questions are answered here and here.