Stapedius

I was only using Rawr to determine the weight of the dps stats until I saw this. My question is now if I should be worried that Rawr is showing crit to be superior to haste per rating point. This is regardless of rotation and main spell. Even for a MF/SF rotation without eclipse crit comes out on top. This also makes gear choices a problem for me at the moment.

WrathCalcs which I tried yesterday not only shows dps values that are lower but also values haste higher. Is someone else using Rawr and experienced the same problem?

 

• Adoriele

WC, at least for now, should always show lower DPS values. It's not adding in any procs or Force of Nature, both of which Rawr covers. As for crit showing up as better than haste, which bar are you looking at? The red bar is scaling without regard to mana, which should almost always give a higher value to haste. The blue bar includes mana concerns, so if you're running out mid-fight, crit may give you enough mana for most cast time. The number at the end of the bars is the sum of the two.

 

Foxe

I'm still on the fence about this haste thing anyway. Someone made a good point in one of these threads about how haste on gear should be a non-issue unless you're in a DPS race with a time limit (viz. enrage timers). Given an unlimited time frame, haste would fall off as a stat that would increase total damage done (in its place, of course, spell power or crit). My problem is though, that almost all of the leather caster gear that drops in Naxx (the easy, non-set pieces) are laced with tons of spirit and haste. They seem like healer gear to me...

I guess tons of mana regen is never bad.

 

Stapedius

I just realized it always suggesting IS/MF/W Rotation so it is only possible to have it use MF/SF as an rotation is with Wrath on eclipse proc. With all available raidbuffs it also tells me I´m never going oom even without Inervate and Manapot. This is definitely not true either. Because of this red und blue bars are always the same.

In every scenario with no mana problems it shows the potent gems somewhat higher than the reckless ones. This is by using my gear or slightly better and pretty much all buffs/debuffs.

This is the Rawr xml file if you want to try it yourself.
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

If someone can tell me what I´m doing wrong I´d really appreciate it.

 

• Adoriele

I know there's a parsing error of some sort going on in Rawr.Moonkin. If I run the optimizer, I usually get the right results, i.e. only two blue gems, socketing a lot of haste, hit if necessary, but when I look at the stat listing it says that Crit is much better, same when comparing two gems (I've had it list crit and int as ~32 DPS upgrades per point as well, which was the real tip-off). I'mma get in touch with Dope, see if he has an idea what's going on, but for now I wouldn't trust any glaring errors.

One thing I've always wanted in Rawr was a way to force a rotation for the optimizer. If I'm casting IS for the hit debuff, I don't care that it's a DPS decrease, I need to cast it anyway, and I'd like to optimize around that.

Foxe: You're probably referring to what I've said earlier, and it's true but impractical. There's all of, what, one fight that's not time-reliant (Patchwerk, if you're good enough), and fights are always time-reliant when you're progressing, either because of healer mana or lowering the chance your tank gets gibbed, if there's no hard system set in place like a tight enrage. Also, given that an upgrade for you is not an upgrade for the entire raid, you can make the assumption that any change in your gear will not seriously impact the length of a given fight (it's not a true assumption, but it's close). With that, 1% crit will cause your spells to hit 1% harder, and 1% haste will cause you to cast 1% more spells. It's equivalent for any nuke (and actually equivalent for any DoT as well, since neither crit nor haste affect DoTs for us). Yes, that statement ignores Nature's Grace, but that's a fairly small benefit in the long run.

 

Riverside

So I've been reading all kinds of forums and stuff lately about the new moonkin specs an all that stuff for level 80. An was wondering why everyone is seeming to enjoy Eclipse so much.

Currently im running a 55/0/16 Armory Talents.

So i went to Org andd used the lvl 80 boss test dummie did 3 tests and did an average dps of 2500-2600 over a 2 - 2 1/2 minute fight (till oom) which generall would end up around 360k-380k dmg. My rotation from start was FF, MF, IS, SF (till MF fell), then re-apply MF and IS, then SF till FF fell an repeat.

Currently in moonkin form (self buffed) with my gear i have 464 haste, 295 hit (yes 1.25 over hit cap), 1870 Spl Power, and 20.91% crit. Which my SF is a 2.48 with talents and such.

So if i was to attempt a Eclipse spec, what would be recomended for my spec? Not sure what i would want to drop from mine, because mana in a 25man isnt a problem at all, neither is it in 5/10mans. So i would assume to drop 2 points from moonglow, and drop 1point in Starfall and then grab Eclipse.

So any thoughts?

edit: Tried out Eclipse and honestly didnt like it. Too me it seems like a wasted TP, because compared to my other spec I lost dps, and aboutt 100k total damage overall (before i went oom).

To me it seems like haveing to wrath spam and waiting for it to proc, it bad. I got a few strings of 10-15 seconds easy with it not procing (after the ICD was down). Maybe i would need to gem differently.

 

Foxe

Right, and my point would have been clear if I weren't a complete idiot (which I am, and fully admit to at this juncture). What I was trying to get at was that I am on the fence about haste for intro gearing (which is what I'm doing at the moment in heroics and naxx 10), but that all the leather caster gear has haste and spirit in spades. I prioritize my stats like so: Hit > Spell Power > Crit > Haste, but all the leather gear that drops prioritizes stats like this: Spell Power > Haste > Spirit. So, I assume that all of these pieces I'm getting are supposed to be for healers, but I have little choice in what to pick up. I'm using two pieces of shadowpriest gear because these are the only things I can get that have high amounts of hit rating on them.

The point is that haste should be a low priority but the gear believes otherwise.

Also, what are people's take on the World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Top DPS on Patchwerk out of the Top 25 Kills, linked through world of raids, about the top 25 dps on patchwerk? No druids fall anywhere in there.

 

• Adoriele

Err, just because you believe that haste should be a low priority doesn't make it so. It consistently outperforms Crit for everything except mana returns.

As for that DPS listing, its value is dubious at best. First, taking the top 25 DPS numbers from Patchwerk is a fallacy, People get lucky with the RNG, and the higher your raid's DPS, the more the RNG plays an effect by shortening the fight. To really compare, you'd need to track multiple Patchwerk fights from the same person with the same gear to reduce the RNG effect. Second, all of the numbers out there show Hunters being way ahead of the curve. Look at their representation on that chart, and tell me that's not the case. Blizzard missed the mark WRT BM hunter DPS, they're likely going to be brought in line. Third, Mages, who make up the second-largest representation, suffer from the RNG to a much greater degree than anyone else, solely because of Hot Streak. It's actually a little surprising to me to see them as second representation instead of first, because they can swing as much as 1000 DPS around their average from fight to fight, without any player control over it.

 

Ashaera

Firstly we are hybrids & should expect a 5-10% lower dps than "pure" dpsclasses.

With that being said, the list you linked is hardly accurate - Even on my guilds first Patchwerk kill I was over 4.7k dps. With the gear I got now then 5k is very doable once we stop going on lag-wednesday. There are other parses of druids shooting above 5k allready.

Long term I would expect too see a mage holding the record, since their prefered spec is highly RNG dependant it probably also have higher peaklevels - So far im finding moonkindps to be pretty stable (& amazingly high for a hybrid class):

 

• Arawethion

I've been skeptical of the Rawr Moonkin model for a few days. Its results are clearly in the ballpark, but there are a lot of anomalies. For example, it currently rates the 10-man set hat higher than the 25-man set hat for me. But then I change my boots or something and they swap. Changing one item and then changing back can produce inconsistent results. Gem are frequently ordered in ways that make no sense, etc. Also, every list is cluttered with a whole bunch of irrelevant junk (items with melee gems, etc), but that might just be me not knowing how to use Rawr correctly.

Is there any interesting discussion here about haste? What are you guys talking about w.r.t. time-limited fights, etc.? Once mana is not an issue, haste is valuable exactly inasmuch as it affects your average damage per unit time, just like any other stat.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

zoneout

Originally Posted by Erdluf
For minor adjustments to your existing gear, Rawr is probably the best choice. For weights from a sample gearset, Simulationcraft sample output shows these reasonable numbers (DPS/point) for a mostly-SF rotation:

Int: .3
Spirit: .2
Spellpower: 1.2
Hit: 1.7
Crit: .8
Haste: 1

I was comparing Loot rank vs. Rawr, and Rawr had the Sash of the Parlor - Item - World of Warcraft ranked best in slot for me, but when i stuck those values into Lootrank, I didnt see it anywhere near the top.

Is that MP5 making the difference? If so, does anyone have a weight for that?

Thanks...

 

• Adoriele

Technically, MP5 doesn't really have a weight. Either you need it, or you don't, and in most cases you don't. How Rawr treats it is by taking the difference in longevity with an extra MP5, and giving you an according amount of damage done. I.E. if you gain 1MP5 and that lets you cast .5s longer (it won't) before going OOM, and you're doing 5000 DPS, then 1 MP5 is worth 2500 DPS. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea. If you'd like a pure DPS weighting in Rawr, the option's there, just sort by Raw Damage instead of Overall.

 

Frenzi

Just a quick pointer, just because you can wear leather it doesn't mean that you have to. Just go look at the Item Level 226 pieces of leather on wowhead, virtually all of them are melee DPS. I researched what I would like to take for my ideal set and every piece outside of T7 was cloth.

 

Hansdruid

I just played around a bit with WrathCalc and saw that the dps value of 3 points in Lunar Guidance is pretty low, only 13 dps per talentpoint for me. Wheras Celestial Focus gave me 30 dps per talent point, iIS gave me 28.

CF & iIS have been discussed a lot and CF seems to be of a lower prio to many, but I have never seen any discussion about Lunar Guidance. It seems to me that LG is even lower prio than Nature's Splendor which some ppl has as the lowest talent to take.

Have I missed something or shall I put points somewhere else than LG?

cheers
/hans

 

thedopefishlives

For all of you complaining about Rawr.Moonkin, there was a rather significant bug in the Starfire glyph (you are all running with that option, right?) that caused stat weightings to be WAY off for small increments of stats. That would cause, for example, crit and haste gems to be messed up, or for crit to over-value haste in certain situations. This bug has been fixed, but it has not been released yet. I apologize to everyone for the general crappy state of Rawr.Moonkin, and I'll keep working on it until it's actually usable at some point in the future.

 

• Adoriele

Lunar Guidance's talent benefit listing is borked in WC right now, it's only counting the benefit of the added spellpower from Int that you get from Furor. This has to do with the fact that you're inputting your spellpower after Lunar Guidance takes effect because it's easier than asking you to add up the spellpower you have on each piece of gear. I'm working on fixing it, but expect the number to be about 6 times as large as it is right now.

 

Humbaba

Tools \ Set Default Gems for Equipment. Enter a set (or two) of gems that make sense. Click the "Delete non-listed gemmings" check box. Gasp in awe as the pointless stuff magically disappears. This was driving me crazy one night and Frotes helped me figure it out.

 

• Adoriele

Eh, you're doing fine, it's still working great for the most part and, as mentioned before, the optimizer was usually getting the right results (unless, you know, I selected every possible drop in T7.10 and T7.25 and ran it), it just had some issues with the stat weighting and some minor upgrade screens. Still miles better than what WC's doing now (Hello forcing people to not use Eclipse!).

 

erragal

Our DPS is also subject to some RNG variables as well. I noticed last week on Patch I had a 4200 DPS going before my second Force of Nature when we had a tank death wipe. On the kill I was right at 4k DPS. The main difference between the two was how soon Eclipse:Starfire procced. On the high DPS attempt it procced on the first wrath multiple times (I was still using 4 piece T6 on this attempt). I imagine we'll have some outlier maximums due to this RNG factor, but our mins shouldn't be comparable to FFB mages.

You're also going to see our DPS fluctuate with the duration of a fight. A 3 minute 45 second patchwerk fight would make us look very good while a 2 minute 59 second patchwerk fight will make us look relatively mundane.

 

Stapedius

It´s good to hear that this is being looked at. At the moment the crit/haste weightings are also off without any glyph for example.

 

thedopefishlives

You should also remember that crit contributes to mana longevity, whereas haste actually burns mana at a faster rate (theoretically speaking, assuming you can actually get the extra cast(s) in). These factors are taken into account when weighting crit vs. haste. If you want to know just plain "which is better", look at the red bars. Also, it should be noted that there will be a minor change in the Relative Stat Values chart soon, but that has more to do with Int/Spirit than anything.

 

Stapedius

Fully raid buffed mana is not an issue and red and blue bars are the same for me.

 

thedopefishlives

Alright, I noticed that the case in which crit pulls ahead in stat value is when the program is selecting Wrath for your primary nuke. I also notice that you have impressively high crit and haste percentages already. What I'm guessing is that your Wrath casts are estimated as approaching the 1-second hard GCD cap; in such a situation, haste would indeed be devalued relative to crit, because crit provides additional secondary benefits besides Nature's Grace. If I force a switch to Starfire by playing with some of Rawr's options, haste does appear to be more valuable for your profile.

 

spencerthomas

I had a question about haste theory.

the idea that haste is a superior stat is that by the end of a set fight you would have cast an extra X amount of spells ( in this case Starfire ) which thus increases your damage done.

now in fights such as Sarth where environmental effects force you to move is not the benefit of haste reset on each move? The way I visualize the numbers is that you are gaining this 'credit' as you cast the hasted spells and then after enough casts you have build up enough cast another spell. In our case Starfire being a talented 3s spell ( and thus reduced to about 2.82s with our haste talents. ) and 1% haste would provide a .028s-.03s cast reduction. This would require 94 casts to net another cast of starfire. If you cannot cast enough spells to net 'the free spell' before moving is the benefit of haste largely lost except for reducing the GCD on DoTs and maybe squeezing a spell out beforing having to move.

 

• Arawethion

This has come up over and over again since the advent of haste. It is not worth rehashing here. Briefly: due to the variation in fight lengths (or equivalently, variation in lengths of time that pass between interruptions), 1% haste will, on average, net a caster a full extra spell 1% of the time. The result is a 1% increase is average DPS.

1% haste is a (roughly, depends the details of your class's rotation), a 1% increase in damage done per unit time--just like 1% hit or 1% crit also are. They all have a component of randomness in the benefit they confer. In the case of hit and crit, the randomness arises from the RNG roll on each spell you cast. In the case of haste, the randomness arises from the small-scale variation in the exact length of time you spend casting without interruption. In all cases, average DPS contribution is the only thing worth considering.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.