Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2) - Page 12

Larisroth · 03/09/09, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dokos

I'm considering buying a nobles deck while the fair is up. But I would really like to know if I should go with agi or strength.

I understand as of 3.1 agi > str for cat dps. But im concerned about the proc itself. Lets say my trinket procs after I rip or rake. Does the crit gained from the agility buff apply to those 2 bleeds?

The proc will be for agility no matter what deck you get as it is for whatever your greatest core stat is so the answer is kind of irrelevant. I'm pretty they changed it so that each tick of DoT damage is a separate damage calculation so will use your crit and AP at that point in time. The are not triggering our on crit effects like Savage Defense or Improved Leader of the Pack however.

Dokos · 03/09/09, 10:17 PM

derrrrr forgot about highest stat!

Thanks for the info. If someone is 100% sure about this please let us know.... just curious.

Mijae · 03/10/09, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dokos

derrrrr forgot about highest stat!

Thanks for the info. If someone is 100% sure about this please let us know.... just curious.

No one can be sure until all the changes are finalized and patched to live.

foxglove · 03/18/09, 7:42 PM

I started this topic in Feral questions? but it seems to make more sense here.

Originally Posted by foxglove

Can't seem to find the answer to this even though it's a really basic question... I looked at Melee Combat Mechanics but it clearly states "This article has not been updated for 3.0" at the top.

Back in the day, the theorycraft was that melee's attack table looked something like this:

Miss
Dodge/Parry
Block
Glancing
Crit
Hit

...and the hit just filled whatever % was left after the first 5, such that it was possible (without a good amount of +hit and weapon skill) for all attacks that landed to be crits (the "crit cap").

Blizzard has overhauled melee mechanics a ton since then, but my question is this: is paper doll crit chance still the % of attempted attacks that should crit, or is it now the percent of landed attacks that should crit?

This fact is relevant with the introduction of Savage Defense because it determines if/how Savage Defense's proc chance scales with hit and expertise. If the crit chance is the % of attempted attacks, then hit and expertise would not affect Savage Defense directly.

Originally Posted by kalbear

That's true for the basic table, foxglove. For yellow attacks it appears to be a two-roll system. Though honestly, I don't know whether or not this has been reverified as truth for WotLK.

For the two roll system, a yellow attack is tested to see whether or not it's a hit - and then checks whether or not it's a crit. So only hits can be crits in that case, and your crit chance determines what % of your hits are crits.

Is this still the case?
Is my reasoning correct that, with this assumption, the crit chance of our instants would be affected by hit and expertise, but not the crit chance from Maul/Autoattacks?
Does Maul in fact follow the white attack model, or the yellow attack one?
Proc rate per second for Mangle, Lacerate, and Swipe spamming would be roughly:
((crit vs. 83) * (1 - (chance to be dodged + chance to be parried + chance to miss)))/1.5

Whereas the proc chance from Maul/Autoattack (assuming not crit softcapped) would be:
(crit vs. 83) / (2.5 * haste factor)

and the total proc rate per second for SD would be the two summed together?

manapaws · 03/19/09, 3:24 PM

1) There hasn't really been any testing yet in Wrath. Most assume it to have stayed the same. My original thought was that if crushing blows were moved up to +4 lvls above a player then other outcomes may have been adjusted also.

2) I don't understand what you mean with this one.

3) Attacks that are next-attack (such as maul, heroic strike) are usually based on white attack model. Attacks like these often also proc items/spells/talents that can only proc off autoattacks.

charriu · 03/19/09, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by manapaws

2) I don't understand what you mean with this one.

What he's getting at is the difference between the 1-roll system for white/on-next-hit attacks and the 2-roll system for special attacks like mangle and swipe.

And yes, that's correct.

jminhas · 03/19/09, 8:09 PM

Does anyone know if druids will still be viable tanks during Ulduar progression?
Or am I better off speccing resto. I don't now who which class scales best, out of the
4 of us.

Wulfmanjack · 03/20/09, 10:24 AM

Played around with the new RAWR version 2.204b.
Added all the new known Ulduar loot and according to this tool armorpen outweights agility by a small margin with Ulduar equip and fully raidbuffed on bosses.
Rawr doesn´t use FB in his rotation and even without armorpen seems better...
Used 4 pieces t8 its better then 4t7 even without the setbonuses (with setbonuses armporpen should be even higher in weight cause you could shred and FB more often)

Used equip and stats (tried also to be hit- and expertisecapped)

Head	Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Neck	Broach of the Wailing Night
Shoulders	Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Chest	Tunic of the Limber Stalker
Waist	Belt of the Twilight Assassin
Legs	Conqueror's Nightsong Legguards
Feet	Flamestalker Boots
Wrist	Mechanist's Bindings
Hands	Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Finger1	Metallic Loop of the Sufferer
Finger2	draconic Guile
Trinket1	Grim Toll
Trinket2	Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Back	Drape of Icy Intent
MainHand	Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned
Ranged	Idol of Worship

Character:		wulfmanjack@EU-die ewige wacht
Race:		NightElf
Overall Points:		8439,688
DPS Points:		8198,317
Survivability Points:		241,37
Health:		24137
Attack Power:		11029,51
Agility:		2172
Strength:		386
Crit Rating:		606
Hit Rating:		233
Expertise Rating:		105
Haste Rating:		295
Armor Penetration Rating:		447,4
Weapon Damage:		+16
Avoided Attacks:		0%
Crit Chance:		59,94089%
Attack Speed:		0,7243447s
Armor Mitigation:		29,36031%

Melee Damage:		27,61602%
Mangle Damage:		0%
Shred Damage:		25,24133%
Rake Damage:		20,53905%
Rip Damage:		26,6036%
Bite Damage:		0%

Optimal Rotation:		Shred+Rip+Roar5
Optimal Rotation DPS:		8198,317

Professions: Entchanting, Leatherworking atm

Relative Statvalue

Armor Penetration Rating: 1,62
Agility: 1,58
Strength: 1,44
Crit: 1,30
Haste: 1,08
Attack Power: 0,60

If not capped
Expertise Rating: 1,31
Hit: 1,04

Will still gem for Agility tho i think, its more flexible.

Edit:
Gemmed for armorpen the value goes even higher
Armorpenetration Rating: 1,73
Agility: 1,60

DPS gain from Regemming to Armorpen was ~10DPS

Valerian · 03/20/09, 5:52 PM

Did that expertise change (where each point was worth more, just like ArP and Haste) actually stick around on the PTR and thus the new Rawr? Otherwise I see absolutely no reason why Hit and Expertise are not valued the same.

charriu · 03/20/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Did that expertise change (where each point was worth more, just like ArP and Haste) actually stick around on the PTR and thus the new Rawr? Otherwise I see absolutely no reason why Hit and Expertise are not valued the same.

That change got reverted on PTR, however, Astrylian wasn't aware of that when he released 2.2b4. So, that's probably fixed in the next (beta) release.

Wulfmanjack · 03/20/09, 8:50 PM

Noticed that too hmm guess then the list is not totally correct or i will just gem a bit expertise than.

IR8PRIM8 · 03/27/09, 8:09 AM

I noticed how ArP will be the "Stat to stack" in 3.1 from what I have been reading (correct?) but when is the point you start stacking it? I mean . Do we aim for 8-9kap 50%crit with hit and soft expertise cap then go with the ArP? or Just go with it in every socket?

ganuard · 03/27/09, 3:51 PM

I thought because a huge portion of our damage comes from bleeds, which ignore ArP, it isn't our ideal stat. For us it's more of a luxury that we're getting 25% more haste and the ArP boost.

Kiku · 03/27/09, 3:58 PM

Nightcrowler had a good write up about armor pen. This was based on the PTR data before the 2 days of nerfs (rip and tear crit bonus to FB down, rake dot no longer crits, SR glyph down to 3%)

I highly suggest you read the entire post.
Link: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

Info:
Stats value

Stat points dps value
Armor Pen (shred) 28.4 +/- 0.1 1.55 +/- 0.01
Agility 26.9 +/- 0.1 1.47 +/- 0.01
Armor Pen (RIP) 26.8 +/- 0.1 1.46 +/- 0.01
Feral AP 12.00 +/- 0.1 0.65 +/- 0.01
Strengh 23.8 +/- 0.1 1.30 +/- 0.01
Crit 22.9 +/- 0.1 1.25 +/- 0.01
Hit 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
Expertise 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
AP 10.00 +/- 0.1 0.55 +/- 0.01
Haste 18.5 +/- 0.1 1.01 +/- 0.01

Discussion
The best in slot trinkets are grim toll and the agility darkmoon card.
Shred idol is better than RIP idol, with the same setup you will do 7179.22 DPS (+3 DPS) but not by a large margin. Shred idol scales better with ArPen while other stats scales about the same way (that's why I've putted 2 row for armor pen).
It's important to notice that all stats scales about lineary in relative value. All but Armor Pen, the more you have, the better it is.
There are 2 boundary lines about ArPen:
At about 400 ArPen with RIP idol and 200 ArPen with Shred idol, ArPen becames a better stats than agility.
For a similar reason at about 240 ArPen Shred idol becames better than RIP idol.

Edit: All info above taken directly from post. I wasn't sure how to put it in a quote box to make sure credit was given where due.

Geshtar · 03/27/09, 5:32 PM

Its likely that with the change to primal gore armor pen will be that much better than agi, due to the slight nerf to our scaling with crit. I'd like to see if someone has run the numbers again with the change to primal gore.