Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2) - Page 3

Maksimus · 11/26/08, 12:20 PM

Now def cap for war and pala is 540 (was 490), for druid was 415 (survival of the fittest). Sombody told me that now for drod is only nead 3xsurvival of the fittest to be uncrttable (I dont belive in that).
My question what is now def cup for druid tank.
Thx for answer!

terminalman · 11/26/08, 12:30 PM

You only need 3/3 SOTF to be uncrittable. That is true. Level 83 bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit, SOTF reduces you by 6% chance to be critted.

bean81782 · 11/26/08, 3:45 PM

This was a while ago, but I thought I read they removed glancing blows? Weapon skill used to reduce your chance of getting a glancing blow, but I thought when they removed weapon skill they also got rid of glancing blows.

kalbear · 11/26/08, 4:08 PM

Glancing blows are still in. I did a few a week ago against a 6+ higher mob.

bean81782 · 11/26/08, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Glancing blows are still in. I did a few a week ago against a 6+ higher mob.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I thought they removed them from mobs +3 levels over you, kind of like they did with crushing blows.

RareBeast · 11/26/08, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Multane

You seem to have missed a 0 after the dot on the crit part with kings. Going from 0.012% to 0.139% is quite an increase.

Also, at the defense breakdown you listed 1 defrating as giving 1% crit reduction if we dont have SotF. I'm assuming you ment to place that at the defense skill part, only its listed there aswell. Maybe remove the line at defense rating?

Thanks Multane. /sigh I can't believe more mistakes still are being found.

Originally Posted by kbranch

I didn't spec out of PP, but I did something like a 9 hour test last night against the heroic dummy with all my gear off. If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic.

Thanks for that test. The miss result certainly is interesting. I'm pretty sure we'd know if the accepted miss figure was wrong. Misses have been reported with people being only just under the cap. I wonder if it is the training dummy. I might be speccing resto tonight for some heroics, so I might leave my toon hitting the dummy tonight when I go to bed and see what sort of result I get.

I was going to ask if someone might have put a debuff on the dummy, but having had a look now, there doesn't seem to be any buff or debuff that affects your chance to hit the mob (only the mobs chance to hit you).

Tulathros · 11/26/08, 11:10 PM

Defense Rating
1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed (and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit if you don't have SotF)

This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.

RareBeast · 11/27/08, 2:01 AM

Originally Posted by Tulathros

This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.

Fair call. I have changed the line to read :-

1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )

Does that wording seem clear? I know there are some unusual mobs with higher than normal crit chances or debuffs that increase their crit chance, but we could make the list unreadable by trying to include every little exception. If people feel otherwise, let me know what you suggest I change it to.

Paternoster · 11/27/08, 2:02 AM

I may be totally off but I still have to ask this:
Assuming that any Feral would want to have nearly 100% Uptime of Savage Roar and that it has a significant influence of attack power shouldn't that be taken into account at the first posting? I thought the reason of the thread was to help people to understand the mechanics an to help them pick the appropriate gear. So taking SR into account would mean a rather large decrease of value for any of the combat ratings or - from the other perspective - a large increase of the value of strength, agi and of course pure attack power. So I'd at least mention it...

RareBeast · 11/28/08, 5:48 PM

This thread isn't trying to weight one stat vs. another. The value of crit vs AP for example is going to be different for every different combination of gear. There are plenty of tools that will give you those stat weightings for your gear eg. Rawr, Toskks

This thread is more a reference for doing your own theorycrafting (eg. working out how much more expertise you need to be capped) as well as a guide for those newer to druid theorycrafting explaining exactly what each stat gives you - things like defense rating for example are not exactly self-explanatory.

Grond · 12/02/08, 3:23 AM

Pardon me if this is the wrong thread to post to, I will move it if you have a suggestion of a better thread.
I'm having some concerns about Feral tanking. I did some browsing of Wowwebstats and found the following.

All from 25man Patchwerk, all Main tanks:

Druid - Fog
45.5% miss and 3.3% mitigated
Wow Web Stats

Druid - Arkenphal (Elitist Jerks)
42.7% miss and 1.2% mitigated
Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ithnan
53.5% miss and 15.7% mitigated
Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ashra
55.0% miss and 10.3% mitigated
Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Klorox
53.2% miss and 11.2% mitigated
Wow Web Stats

Am I missing something? It seems like Bears are substandard tanks for physical damage now.

Ochse Otti · 12/02/08, 4:22 AM

It look like you miss the overall mitigation. Your presented numbers show only the damage reduction by avoidance and partly by block.

The mitigation number also annoys me a little, when looking at the actual web stats. It seems it combines mitigation from block and from shields cast by Priests or Paladins. The block thing belongs to the tank while the shield spell mitigation is just another form of healing.

One interesting example would be comparing the Fog an Ashra stats. Both fights lasted 2 minutes and 51 seconds. Fog took 831,196 over the course of the fight while Ashra took 1,070,424 damage over the same amount of time. So the druid took quite less damage than the warrior.

From the Gais, Buffs & Debuffs tab i can see that Fog is using the [Defender's Code] which is most likely the main reason the Druid took quit less damage.

Grond · 12/02/08, 6:25 AM

I would certainly be interested in seeing the overall mitigation. Can you find or calculate that from Webstats?

It looks like Ashra was the OT so please disregard that one. My concern is the difference in mitigation is too small to make up the disparity in avoidance. If I am too much of a mana sink on purely physical bosses I am not sure what that will leave me to tank. Is there something I am leaving out?

Draeg · 12/02/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by kbranch

If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic. Seems to me like either there's some +hit I'm getting that I'm not aware of (and doesn't show up on the character sheet), I just got a ridiculously improbable lack of misses, or the training dummy uses different mechanics than a real raid boss (which pretty much invalidates everything else in the test). I suppose the 9% number we're all used to could be wrong, but I find that pretty unlikely.

There's a hit rating topic over at the hunter section (Link) where the same observation is being made: apparently there is an 8% chance to miss on the heroic target dummy.

The possible explanations of this seem limited:

Heroic target dummy's deliberately work different from raidbosses (perhaps a 1% miss chance that cannot be covered with +hit?)
Heroic target dummy's are currently bugged
Chance to miss has been changed by Blizz

kbranch · 12/02/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Draeg

There's a hit rating topic over at the hunter section (Link) where the same observation is being made: apparently there is an 8% chance to miss on the heroic target dummy.

The possible explanations of this seem limited:

Heroic target dummy's deliberately work different from raidbosses (perhaps a 1% miss chance that cannot be covered with +hit?)
Heroic target dummy's are currently bugged
Chance to miss has been changed by Blizz

Thanks, I was hoping there was some more discussion about this. Looks like several people are reporting 0 misses with ~8% +hit on real bosses now. Not quite 100% definitive yet since the only data I've seen on real bosses comes from hunters, but it certainly looks like they changed the miss chance to 8%.