corveroth

I built this little graph the other day to show how much of a stat you need to get 1% real avoidance after DR, given your dodge chance. I believe it's approximately correct, except that defense should be a bit off since this doesn't factor in the DR on chance to be missed.

 

RareBeast

Thanks for the graph - very useful indeed. So it looks like for realistic levels of dodge (33-50%) we are looking at ~63-80 Agi per 1% and ~66-84 DodgeRating for 1%avoidance.

Just to clarify, is that 1% avoidance different to a 1% increase in dodge on the character sheet then? It is looking like I may need to add a graph to the OP or something to truly reflect the value of Agi & DodreRating.

 

corveroth

Well, I labeled the y-axis avoidance instead of dodge because it counts the chance-to-be-missed on the graph for defense. Aside from that, it should match the character sheet (to my knowledge).

[edit]: Typo

 

Drashian

Revisiting the Hit and Expertise caps, I ran a couple of tests against the heroic target dummy (white attacks only). I wasn't in a group, and had no buffs. I did have Primal Precision.

6.25% expertise: Finally got a dodge after 1300-something swings.
7.5% hit: Missed after 300ish swings.
8% hit: No misses in 1000 swings.

I would have liked to have ran the 8% hit test for longer, but still, the odds of a 1% chance not coming up in 1000 swings can probably be considered statistically negligible. I'm definitely starting to suspect that the 8% physical miss rate other classes are seeing applies to feral druids too. At least in cat form making white attacks vs heroic target dummies.

 

Pharmacon

Heroic dummies aren't really the concern though. It's boss level mobs that the chance to hit needs to be 9%

[e]: My misunderstanding. I was thinking of a heroic boss level 82.

 

Drashian

I was under the impression that the Heroic Training Dummy was supposed to be an exact replica of a boss level mob (being classified as such). While it's possible that they have 1% less hit avoidance than a real boss, I haven't seen any definite posts to that effect.

 

RareBeast

All tests indicate that the dummies have 8% hit needed. So far many WWS reports have agreed this, but we still need more WWS's of kittys with between 8 and 8.99% +hit to confirm this is actually the case now for bosses as well.


I definitely will have to work on getting that graph into the original post somehow. The fact that at higher levels of dodge 45%+ it can take up double the amount of DodgeRating or Agi per 1% dodge than I have posted in the OP is pretty important for people to know I suppose.

 

Windchilla

With 8.54% hit Maly near cap hit. couple of misses on Maly. (note this is without drake damage).

With 9.01% hit Patchwerk cap hit. no misses.

 

halmmar

Actually, you didn't miss. Click the ability and it folds up more detailed stats (your only "misses" were in fact parries and blocks).

 

EuStormrageFeralDruid

I really like this thread. Because I'm looking further into numbers I was browsing the forums in search of what I needed and uptill now I don't realy have what I wished for but nevertheless this topic gives me insight on some other numbers.

But if anyone could help me with the following then I would appreciate it:

* Formula to calculate my characters armor in the current versions used on the live server @ level 80
* Formula to calculate mitigation from armor used in the current versions on the live server @ level 80

* Formula to calculate my characters armor in the upcomming patch 3.0.8 @ level 80
* Formula to calculate mitigation from armor going to be used in patch 3.0.8 @ level 80

The reason is that I'll like to see it in absolute numbers instead of being satisfied with Ghostcrawlers comment that although armor will be different, the mitigation will stay the same.

I know it's a difficult question, I'm aware of that, but those formula's and calculations have got te be found somewhere? For instance, to keep it simple. How do I calculate my present characters armor. Should I have to multiply armor gained from agi to or is that considered as bonus armor, etc?

Would appreciate the help

 

Rannasha

Right now, the characters armor is calculated as:
item_contribution + buffs/enchants + 2 * agility

Where item_contribution is:
1.02 * 1.1 * 4.7 * armor_from_items

After the patch, the armor from buffs/enchants and agility remains unchanged. While the armor from items changes to:
1.02 * (bonus_armor + 1.1 * 1.66 * 4.7 * base_armor)

Where base_armor is the armor from the 8 leather slots as well as the base armor from cloaks (compare with an equal level caster or dps cloak to find out the value). Bonus_armor is all the rest.

The formula to calculate mitigation from armor doesn't change. It can easily be found on WoWwiki or Druidwiki.

 

EuStormrageFeralDruid

I'm pretty sure I've read in the blue PTR post about 3.0.8 that armor from rings, trinkets, neck and cloak won't be multiplied anymore. Although the patch note states only base armor from leather and cloth will be multiplied you still have to exclude cloaks! Basically we won't get any multipliers anymore on weapon / rings / trinkets / neck / cloaks

Thanks for the armor calculation however....know what to do. But I rather find it strange the formula for mitigation stayed the same. This would mean that in patch 3.0.8 we would get less mitigation from our armor since armor probably will be lower in the new patch. I've copied my char to the PTR realm to check the actual values of armor and when I got the time I will most definitly get back to this because at the moment it's all guessing. First things first and thus I am going to try and calculate my armor and hope it matches my ingame result on the liver servers

 

unitsinc

No, he was correct about cloaks. We get the "base" armor value. To find that, do exactly as he said and find an equivalent ilevel caster or dps cloak and take that armor value and it gets all of our multipliers. Any remaining armor from the value shown and the base is not multiplied.

 

RareBeast

I have updated the OP to the 8% hit for bosses to reflect the current evidence pointing to this change.

Has anyone seen any information on if there has been any changes to hit% for non-boss mobs? I have left the figures as the previous 5/5.5/6% for level 80/81/82 mobs, but am not sure if they possibly changed when the boss% changed.

 

Celeras

The things I do for you, EJ~ Confirmation on the hit speculation started on page 4.

263 hit: http://razorbites.com/celeras/263.jpg
262 hit: http://razorbites.com/celeras/262.jpg

Doesn't get much more conclusive then that. Or at least it's not going to from me.

 

Ropik

Hi folks,

Anyone got a clue why I got crit 3 times by KT25 yesterday ??? Beeing uncritable by talent + extra couple of def. points on my stuff, I just don't get it ... Of course I was in bear form all fight long (ie, including phase 1).

WWS is here.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

Rannasha

Someone who can provide crit buffs to other players was mindcontrolled and buffed Kel'thuzad. Feral Druids and Fury Warriors are the obvious suspects with LotP and Rampage, there might be other classes/specs as well that i don't know about.

 

Wednesday

Those crits look to be less than half the damage of an average hit. I would guess some sort of parsing error.

 

Melthu

Rannasha was close. You were crit 3 times by Darks while he was Mind Controlled, Kel'Thuzad himself never landed a crit on you.

 

• RoboStac

Kel'Thuzad has a 0% crit rate on that parse - the recorded crits will be from a mindcontrolled player.

 

Ropik

Nice, thanks for the feedback.

How did you managed to get that info out of the WWS ? I tried to check the logs manualy before posting but didn't find a way to extract the data I needed.

Thx a lot

 

Melthu

Well, knowing what to look for helped a lot. As Wednesday pointed out your maximum crit taken was about half the size of the average hits you took, which is obviously a red flag. To confirm this what you can do is browse the log file and filter for "source="Kel'Thuzad" and target=Ropik". A quick glance through the filter will show you that Kel'Thuzad didn't land any crits.

If you go back to your personal page and open the "Breakdowns" tab you can see everyone who damaged you in the fight. Other than KT and his guardians there were 3 people who hit you: Darks, Nm, and Grun. You can then go back to the log file and use the same filter as before, except that you replace "Kel'Thuzad" with whichever player you want to check. Look at Darks' hits on you and you'll find 3 crits.

 

Freedom

So I have finally had a chance to do some damage in raids with a half decent build.

Until this point I had basically gemmed and enchanted primarily for hit and then for strength, since reaching the hit cap was important for me and with savage roar I just had faith that strength would yield the most

However during the raid there were a number of times I felt my combo point generation failing due to lack of crits, so I have started to look at the comparison between agility and crit rating.


"From the first page, correct at time of posting"

Assuming Standard out of combat raid buffs "Talents + Blessing of Kings"


1 Strength = 2.5652 Attack power
1 Crit rating = 0.22% Crit
1 Agility = 1.2826 Attack power / 0.013992% Crit
2 Agility = 2.5652 Attack power / 0.027984% Crit

ok so from that we can simply say

2 Agility = 1 Strength + 1.272 Crit rating

What this tells me is if I don't have enough crit it is better to use pure agility, than it is to use a mixture of strength and crit rating to gain crit. Where this will fall down is if using Pure agility cannot get you enough crit to make a difference, then you will have to use crit rating instead.

It is just nice to note that

16 Agility > 8 Strength + 8 Crit Rating

I am not implying agility > Strength.

 

RareBeast

You currently have 6 slots in your gear on armory. 6x 16agi gems will still only give you 1.34% extra crit, which will barely be noticable, while losing a decent chunk of AP. Rawr shows that your raid-buffed crit is just under 40% (full buffs as would be reasonable in 25man) which is a bit less than me (you have LOTS more AP than me though) and I don't seem to have too much trouble with combo generation. I really don't think the crit gain from those gems would make enough of a difference to counteract the AP loss you would take.

 

Freedom

The difference is small agreed, but the difference in AP loss is also small.

Changing strength to agility halves the attack power I get from gems and if my rotation is bugging out to get a comfortable crit I need to either.

1. Wait to get gear upgrades with higher agility values or crit rating

2. Down or side grade my gear to values with higher crit with the lose of attack power

3. Change my gemming/enchants

Getting upgrades will happen naturally over time but at the moment the easiest options are to find better itemized items that are of a similar level, or change my gemming.

Both of these solutions should lead to the same attack power lose for crit gain unless I can change the gear by losing less useful stats which is rather luck and time based at the moment, so the quickest option is what is above.

I guess my failing is again believe that obtaining a perfect rotation should be greater than gaining what is suggested as better stats.