Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2) - Page 5

Euthanized · 01/10/09, 7:59 PM

After coming here to find the required caps I started working on hitting them as a tank but I find myself seriously lacking in almost every area. Are other feral tanks running against this issue or am I just missing some key pieces of gear? And looking at T7.10/25 there is a serious lack of expertise/hit on all of the pieces except chest and legs.
Currently sitting at: 34 expertise (8.5%), 119 hit (3.63%), 425 defense (1% cap), 35% dodge.
Granted this is in pre-raid gear, but even looking through 10-man drops it seems impossible to hit all the caps while maintaining high armor and health.

Mijae · 01/10/09, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by Euthanized

After coming here to find the required caps I started working on hitting them as a tank but I find myself seriously lacking in almost every area. Are other feral tanks running against this issue or am I just missing some key pieces of gear? And looking at T7.10/25 there is a serious lack of expertise/hit on all of the pieces except chest and legs.
Currently sitting at: 34 expertise (8.5%), 119 hit (3.63%), 425 defense (1% cap), 35% dodge.
Granted this is in pre-raid gear, but even looking through 10-man drops it seems impossible to hit all the caps while maintaining high armor and health.

It is possible to make a gear set maxing either or both hit/expertise. However, neither are necessary and definitely not recommended for a pre-raid set.

Ja7us · 01/10/09, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Euthanized

After coming here to find the required caps I started working on hitting them as a tank but I find myself seriously lacking in almost every area. Are other feral tanks running against this issue or am I just missing some key pieces of gear? And looking at T7.10/25 there is a serious lack of expertise/hit on all of the pieces except chest and legs.
Currently sitting at: 34 expertise (8.5%), 119 hit (3.63%), 425 defense (1% cap), 35% dodge.
Granted this is in pre-raid gear, but even looking through 10-man drops it seems impossible to hit all the caps while maintaining high armor and health.

Your post is a little ambiguous, but you aren't actually trying to reach a "defense cap," are you? Druids are now uncrittable solely from talents; the only benefit you get from defense is in the form of avoidance through dodge and miss.

Euthanized · 01/10/09, 11:15 PM

I was aiming for the +1% to miss which "caps" around 123, this is assuming we can't get higher than 1% from defense. I have been worried about getting the expertise and hit caps because I don't want to be "that guy" that shows up to a raid without the stats to actually tank effectively. Although I am seeing, from 10-man content atleast, that it is not required to hit any of these caps to tank effectively.

brokentuzk · 01/11/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Drashian

Revisiting the Hit and Expertise caps, I ran a couple of tests against the heroic target dummy (white attacks only). I wasn't in a group, and had no buffs. I did have Primal Precision.

6.25% expertise: Finally got a dodge after 1300-something swings.
7.5% hit: Missed after 300ish swings.
8% hit: No misses in 1000 swings.

I would have liked to have ran the 8% hit test for longer, but still, the odds of a 1% chance not coming up in 1000 swings can probably be considered statistically negligible. I'm definitely starting to suspect that the 8% physical miss rate other classes are seeing applies to feral druids too. At least in cat form making white attacks vs heroic target dummies.

What is a heroic dummy target dummy and where do I find them? Why would I use one? If I want to cap my Expertise cant I just run a Instance and after the fight look at my add on and see that (lets say I missed 1% of the time) I need to add enough Expertise to my gear to give me 1%. Go out and add some gem or enchant or what ever it takes to get that 1% then run it again and see if that does the trick? I just guess I dont understand spending that amount of time hitting a dummy for 1300 swings to find the data you can get out of a raid? Maybe I am missing something because I havent been playing for that long it just doesnt make any since to me.

Duilliath · 01/11/09, 7:56 AM

The target dummies are located in the main cities (and Dalaran), making this something where you -can- find info outside of a raid.
Heroic refers to their 'level', not the content where you'd find them.

Valerian · 01/11/09, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Euthanized

I was aiming for the +1% to miss which "caps" around 123, this is assuming we can't get higher than 1% from defense. I have been worried about getting the expertise and hit caps because I don't want to be "that guy" that shows up to a raid without the stats to actually tank effectively. Although I am seeing, from 10-man content atleast, that it is not required to hit any of these caps to tank effectively.

What is this +1% miss "cap" you're talking about? And being hit/expertise capped was never a requirement to tank effectively. They are both useful but hardly a requirement. As was mentioned above, the gear to get yourself hit/expertise capped pre-raid is going to be fairly sub-par for actual defensive stats.

Euthanized · 01/11/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by RareBeast

122.96 Defense Rating = 1% chance to dodge and 1% chance to be missed and 1% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )

I think I was just reading this poorly. I am used to BC where we needed to hit a certain level of defense to become uncrittable, which is obviously no longer the case in WotLK. I thought it would be more beneficial to get the extra 1% to miss than to stack say... 3% more dodge in the gear/gems/enchants that are used for defense rating. Just a question of where you can get the best/most mitigation, which I think I failed.

RareBeast · 01/11/09, 6:35 PM

All that means is that for every 123 defense you will get that 1%. There is nothing stopping you from getting 246 defense and getting 2% to dodge & miss etc. (except I hope, your common sense) there is no relevant cap on defense.

If you don't want to be the one who shows up unable to tank, then make sure you focus on stam, armor, agi & dodge before you worry too much about gettng to the expertise & hit caps. Yes, there is always a chance a taunt will be resisted if you aren't hitcapped, but there is only a 3 min cooldown on our AoE taunt now.

mhr_78 · 01/11/09, 7:16 PM

and you can glyph growl to be unresistable can't you?

◊ Abradix · 01/12/09, 5:42 AM

Not unless you also have 9% hit from gear on top of the Glyph (Or 6 I suppose with Misery/IFF up), I have gotten resists from Noth amongst others with Glyph of Growl and 3% to hit. This would be because the spell hitcap is 17%, and while Growl was changed to benefit from melee hit in 2.4, it still very much follows the spell rules.

Mijae · 01/12/09, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Abradix

Not unless you also have 9% hit from gear on top of the Glyph (Or 6 I suppose with Misery/IFF up), I have gotten resists from Noth amongst others with Glyph of Growl and 3% to hit. This would be because the spell hitcap is 17%, and while Growl was changed to benefit from melee hit in 2.4, it still very much follows the spell rules.

It would be interesting to find out which hit rating it uses. If it is still based on the change to melee hit rating, it's actually worse for us.

kalbear · 01/12/09, 1:14 PM

It would be interesting to find out which hit rating it uses. If it is still based on the change to melee hit rating, it's actually worse for us.

It was tested recently here that shows it still uses the spell hit table.

Mijae · 01/12/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

It was tested recently here that shows it still uses the spell hit table.

Right. However, before LK it was updated to use the spell hit table but melee hit rating. Does it still use melee hit rating to determine the spell hit chance, or has it been changed back?

kalbear · 01/12/09, 1:42 PM

Ah, I see what you're saying. To my knowledge it still uses melee hit rating. I don't know whether or not this has been authoritatively tested.

◊ Abradix · 01/12/09, 1:58 PM

There is no difference, hit is hit right now. Spell hit has always kept effecting Growl even after melee hit also affected it, so Misery/IFF should still work for it.

Mijae · 01/12/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Abradix

There is no difference, hit is hit right now. Spell hit has always kept effecting Growl even after melee hit also affected it, so Misery/IFF should still work for it.

No. It takes fewer points of hit rating to get 1% spell hit (~26.232) than it takes to get 1% of melee hit (~32.79). The melee hit cap of 8% is worth roughly 10% spell hit.

◊ Abradix · 01/12/09, 2:23 PM

Interesting. I'll see if I can get some testing going on tonight/tomorrow.

Boevis · 01/12/09, 6:21 PM

Just clicked growl at a dummy for 30 min wearing 446 Hit Rating which translates as 17% spell hit and 13.6% melee hit, without the Glyph, and I did not get a single miss. Another 30 min, no misses.

Yes, I tested with my amazing 56 hit tanking gear, there was much missing.

Beace · 01/14/09, 7:34 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Just clicked growl at a dummy for 30 min wearing 446 Hit Rating which translates as 17% spell hit and 13.6% melee hit, without the Glyph, and I did not get a single miss. I'm aware 250 data points don't provide statistical proof, but I"ll get back to it later

This might be a stupid question, but is it actually possible to miss a growl on target dummies? Did you try without hit gear and saw misses?

Centarion · 01/14/09, 2:15 PM

Why don't you just test on your own instead of sending someone else to stupidly click onto 1 button for hours?

Though it would be easy to have a spamtest with a g15-keyboard... Nevertheless you won't do anything else beside 'growling'.

Agilurso · 02/09/09, 11:19 AM

I'm also wondering if there wasn't some sort of change made in the last patch.

Due to a recent gear change, I'm a bit under the hit-cap (7.87%), but I've been noticing I haven't been missing at all.

I decided to do some hits on a target dummy, and I'm still NEVER missing. Here's a screenie:

I continued to beat on that dummy for over 1700 melee swings; no misses.

I'm going to regem a bit down to just over 7% hit, and then just below to see if perhaps our requisite +hit wasn't lowered last patch.

-Agi

EDIT: This test was performed on the "??" boss dummy in IF.

Melthu · 02/09/09, 11:34 AM

You only had a 0.13% chance of missing. There's nearly an 11% chance to not have a miss after only 1700 swings. You'll need quite a few more swings before we can rule out bad (or good) luck.

Agilurso · 02/09/09, 11:44 AM

I'll lower my hit closer to 7% and try a couple thousand swings.

EDIT:

Lowered down to 7.38% hit and did incur a miss. Apologies if I caused any confusion. I'm going to go play the Lottery because evidently I'm very lucky. =D

loccus · 02/12/09, 9:13 AM

I'm hope that their promise to increase our sustained DPS comes as soon as possible. I dont know about u, but I can't do better that top 5-7 on bosses (without adds).