I don't know where these numbers are from, but if you take the BoK in account, wouldn't the new improved word of fortitude (don't know the spell in english :x), which gives +4% stamina, be part of the calculation ? Or maybe it doesn't stack with MotW :/
I just notice people always talk about Hit and Expertise, but what about Armor Penetration?
Now that bosses have 13083 armor wouldn't It help melees achieving a better DPS if they Armor Penetration were higher? (maybe considering they are hit/expertise capped)
I just notice people always talk about Hit and Expertise, but what about Armor Penetration?
Now that bosses have 13083 armor wouldn't It help melees achieving a better DPS if they Armor Penetration were higher? (maybe considering they are hit/expertise capped)
No because armor pentetration only affects auto swings, mangle, shred, and ferocious bite (if we even use that anymore). 40-50% of our damage will be from bleeds (rake, rip) so it's only common sense that a stat that wouldn't affect half of our damage be not as good as stats that do (ap/crit).
My understanding is that Armor Penetration acts on armor independent of sunders and other reductions in 3.1 (that is, it's not devalued by their presence like it is currently). Since ArP has always been a fairly decent stat before sunders (around the same value as crit, I think), that change going live will probably go a long way toward it not being nearly as worthless as it is now. I doubt we'll see anyone gemming for it or anything, but we'll at least not be so displeased when we find it on our stuff.
The "common sense" assumption that armor penetration is balanced around players whose damage is 100% mitigated by armor is wrong.
Rogues, DKs, hunters, ret pallies, and enhancement shamen all have components of their damage which isn't affected by armor. The only class with nearly-pure physical DPS from my guild's last WWS parse is our Fury warrior, and he still had plenty of Deep Wounds damage. Other physical-damage classes/specs can range from 20% (warrior) to 60% (DK) non-armor damage. 40%-50% is middle-to-low value on the scale, but it's not terrible.
If you haven't realized it yet, armor penetration isn't our worst stat on Live (see haste and crit) even in non-FB cycles (see Toskk's, Rawr). On live I'm quite happy seeing it on gear, because it's both a good secondary DPS stat and it doesn't have a hard cap on its value like hit/expertise.
Of stats to change, Haste is what gets hurt the most in the conversions: our autoattack damage is by far the lowest of everyone's as a percentage of our damage, since the SR change buffs yellow attacks while nerfing white, and the shred glyph means we get more yellow damage since less energy is needed to keep up Rip.
Overall though, I expect ArPen as a stat for us to stay slightly behind where it goes for all classes: if it's a slight buff on average for every class, it'll be neutral versus live for us; if it stays where it is for everyone on average, it'll be slightly worse.
Will arp be additive? I know that it is if you look at the box in-game, if I have 11% arp from gear I get 61% when Grim's toll procs (49% from Grim's toll)
Will it stack that way with sunder & faerie fire as well?
I'm considering buying a nobles deck while the fair is up. But I would really like to know if I should go with agi or strength.
I understand as of 3.1 agi > str for cat dps. But im concerned about the proc itself. Lets say my trinket procs after I rip or rake. Does the crit gained from the agility buff apply to those 2 bleeds?
Armor penetration from gear all comes from the same source.
That's a really good question, Dokos. I would guess that, since the DoT's damage is fixed at cast time, its chance to crit (if not the determination of whether the ticks will crit or not) is set at application time. I'm sure it hasn't been tested, and I doubt it will, because something like that would get averaged out in the long run, for a chance-on-hit proc. It might be relevant for an on-use trinket, though.
Nightcrowler's initial analysis of the current PTR build for feral dps shows armorpen tied with Agility in terms of dps contribution per point. I don't see Blizzard going forward with the changes to armor pen as it stands currently, especially considering it's the only stat that gets better the more you have.
I'm considering buying a nobles deck while the fair is up. But I would really like to know if I should go with agi or strength.
I understand as of 3.1 agi > str for cat dps. But im concerned about the proc itself. Lets say my trinket procs after I rip or rake. Does the crit gained from the agility buff apply to those 2 bleeds?
The proc will be for agility no matter what deck you get as it is for whatever your greatest core stat is so the answer is kind of irrelevant. I'm pretty they changed it so that each tick of DoT damage is a separate damage calculation so will use your crit and AP at that point in time. The are not triggering our on crit effects like Savage Defense or Improved Leader of the Pack however.
I started this topic in Feral questions? but it seems to make more sense here.
Originally Posted by foxglove
Can't seem to find the answer to this even though it's a really basic question... I looked at Melee Combat Mechanics but it clearly states "This article has not been updated for 3.0" at the top.
Back in the day, the theorycraft was that melee's attack table looked something like this:
Miss
Dodge/Parry
Block
Glancing
Crit
Hit
...and the hit just filled whatever % was left after the first 5, such that it was possible (without a good amount of +hit and weapon skill) for all attacks that landed to be crits (the "crit cap").
Blizzard has overhauled melee mechanics a ton since then, but my question is this: is paper doll crit chance still the % of attempted attacks that should crit, or is it now the percent of landed attacks that should crit?
This fact is relevant with the introduction of Savage Defense because it determines if/how Savage Defense's proc chance scales with hit and expertise. If the crit chance is the % of attempted attacks, then hit and expertise would not affect Savage Defense directly.
Originally Posted by kalbear
That's true for the basic table, foxglove. For yellow attacks it appears to be a two-roll system. Though honestly, I don't know whether or not this has been reverified as truth for WotLK.
For the two roll system, a yellow attack is tested to see whether or not it's a hit - and then checks whether or not it's a crit. So only hits can be crits in that case, and your crit chance determines what % of your hits are crits.
Is this still the case?
Is my reasoning correct that, with this assumption, the crit chance of our instants would be affected by hit and expertise, but not the crit chance from Maul/Autoattacks?
Does Maul in fact follow the white attack model, or the yellow attack one?
Proc rate per second for Mangle, Lacerate, and Swipe spamming would be roughly:
((crit vs. 83) * (1 - (chance to be dodged + chance to be parried + chance to miss)))/1.5
Whereas the proc chance from Maul/Autoattack (assuming not crit softcapped) would be:
(crit vs. 83) / (2.5 * haste factor)
and the total proc rate per second for SD would be the two summed together?
1) There hasn't really been any testing yet in Wrath. Most assume it to have stayed the same. My original thought was that if crushing blows were moved up to +4 lvls above a player then other outcomes may have been adjusted also.
2) I don't understand what you mean with this one.
3) Attacks that are next-attack (such as maul, heroic strike) are usually based on white attack model. Attacks like these often also proc items/spells/talents that can only proc off autoattacks.
- Tauren Druid (Realm first Naxx/Malygos)
- Gnome Mage (Realm first Sarth +3d)
- Nelf Druid (new main - progressing through Ulduar)
2) I don't understand what you mean with this one.
What he's getting at is the difference between the 1-roll system for white/on-next-hit attacks and the 2-roll system for special attacks like mangle and swipe.
Does anyone know if druids will still be viable tanks during Ulduar progression?
Or am I better off speccing resto. I don't now who which class scales best, out of the
4 of us.
Played around with the new RAWR version 2.204b.
Added all the new known Ulduar loot and according to this tool armorpen outweights agility by a small margin with Ulduar equip and fully raidbuffed on bosses.
Rawr doesn´t use FB in his rotation and even without armorpen seems better...
Used 4 pieces t8 its better then 4t7 even without the setbonuses (with setbonuses armporpen should be even higher in weight cause you could shred and FB more often)
Used equip and stats (tried also to be hit- and expertisecapped)
Head Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Neck Broach of the Wailing Night
Shoulders Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Chest Tunic of the Limber Stalker
Waist Belt of the Twilight Assassin
Legs Conqueror's Nightsong Legguards
Feet Flamestalker Boots
Wrist Mechanist's Bindings
Hands Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Finger1 Metallic Loop of the Sufferer
Finger2 draconic Guile
Trinket1 Grim Toll
Trinket2 Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Back Drape of Icy Intent
MainHand Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned
Ranged Idol of Worship
Character: wulfmanjack@EU-die ewige wacht
Race: NightElf
Overall Points: 8439,688
DPS Points: 8198,317
Survivability Points: 241,37
Health: 24137
Attack Power: 11029,51
Agility: 2172
Strength: 386
Crit Rating: 606
Hit Rating: 233
Expertise Rating: 105
Haste Rating: 295
Armor Penetration Rating: 447,4
Weapon Damage: +16
Avoided Attacks: 0%
Crit Chance: 59,94089%
Attack Speed: 0,7243447s
Armor Mitigation: 29,36031%
Melee Damage: 27,61602%
Mangle Damage: 0%
Shred Damage: 25,24133%
Rake Damage: 20,53905%
Rip Damage: 26,6036%
Bite Damage: 0%
Optimal Rotation: Shred+Rip+Roar5
Optimal Rotation DPS: 8198,317
Did that expertise change (where each point was worth more, just like ArP and Haste) actually stick around on the PTR and thus the new Rawr? Otherwise I see absolutely no reason why Hit and Expertise are not valued the same.
Did that expertise change (where each point was worth more, just like ArP and Haste) actually stick around on the PTR and thus the new Rawr? Otherwise I see absolutely no reason why Hit and Expertise are not valued the same.
That change got reverted on PTR, however, Astrylian wasn't aware of that when he released 2.2b4. So, that's probably fixed in the next (beta) release.
02/28/09, 9:20 AM
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