Wulfmanjack

Noticed that too hmm guess then the list is not totally correct or i will just gem a bit expertise than.

 

IR8PRIM8

I noticed how ArP will be the "Stat to stack" in 3.1 from what I have been reading (correct?) but when is the point you start stacking it? I mean . Do we aim for 8-9kap 50%crit with hit and soft expertise cap then go with the ArP? or Just go with it in every socket?

 

ganuard

I thought because a huge portion of our damage comes from bleeds, which ignore ArP, it isn't our ideal stat. For us it's more of a luxury that we're getting 25% more haste and the ArP boost.

 

Kiku

Nightcrowler had a good write up about armor pen. This was based on the PTR data before the 2 days of nerfs (rip and tear crit bonus to FB down, rake dot no longer crits, SR glyph down to 3%)

I highly suggest you read the entire post.
Link: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

Info:
Stats value

Stat points dps value
Armor Pen (shred) 28.4 +/- 0.1 1.55 +/- 0.01
Agility 26.9 +/- 0.1 1.47 +/- 0.01
Armor Pen (RIP) 26.8 +/- 0.1 1.46 +/- 0.01
Feral AP 12.00 +/- 0.1 0.65 +/- 0.01
Strengh 23.8 +/- 0.1 1.30 +/- 0.01
Crit 22.9 +/- 0.1 1.25 +/- 0.01
Hit 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
Expertise 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
AP 10.00 +/- 0.1 0.55 +/- 0.01
Haste 18.5 +/- 0.1 1.01 +/- 0.01


Discussion
The best in slot trinkets are grim toll and the agility darkmoon card.
Shred idol is better than RIP idol, with the same setup you will do 7179.22 DPS (+3 DPS) but not by a large margin. Shred idol scales better with ArPen while other stats scales about the same way (that's why I've putted 2 row for armor pen).
It's important to notice that all stats scales about lineary in relative value. All but Armor Pen, the more you have, the better it is.
There are 2 boundary lines about ArPen:
At about 400 ArPen with RIP idol and 200 ArPen with Shred idol, ArPen becames a better stats than agility.
For a similar reason at about 240 ArPen Shred idol becames better than RIP idol.

Edit: All info above taken directly from post. I wasn't sure how to put it in a quote box to make sure credit was given where due.

 

Geshtar

Its likely that with the change to primal gore armor pen will be that much better than agi, due to the slight nerf to our scaling with crit. I'd like to see if someone has run the numbers again with the change to primal gore.

 

Girrass

Edit: felt post was in the wrong place afterall, and found some of the information I needed.

 

battleliquor

I'm wondering if anyone has done any test realm research on the new 3.1 feral changes concerning the seeming undervalue of crit rating and agility for dps. Basically my question is, how much more important is agi and/or crit rating going to become compared to what it has been in WotLK with the new critable bleeds talent?

Given how large a portion of feral dps is derived from bleeds that(until now) can't crit, I have to imagine that crit % is going to become substantially better at least in terms of overall damage scaling. If anyone has already run some tests that haven't posted or I may have missed, please refer me or post here.

 

foxglove

Try Rawr, Tossk's, or Nightcrowler's sim. All have 3.1 versions. Cat DPS Rotation also has a lot of information on how the 3.1 changes affect the values of different stats, including numbers and PTR tests. Or, look 3 posts up from yours.

 

Murna

Perhaps RareBeast could edit his first post for the recent 3.1 changes.

*edit*

Is this correct?

With no Talents, 1 Armor will convert to 4.7 Armor, because of Bear Form 370% increased Armor.
But with SotF this will be increased with 33% more Armor, thus...

1 Armor = 6.251 Armor
1 Armor = 6.8761 Amor (with Thick Hide)

 

Pasty

You may want to add these new numbers to the first post, for values that include the new Improved Mark (additional 2% stats) talent as well as SotF and HotW. I used the same maths as in the original post, in terms of what combined multiplicatively, and what combined additively.

Please note that I assumed that SotF and Improved MotW combined additively, as the difference is too small for me to test with my current gear. I would appreciate confirmation or refutation of this assumption.

Stats with HotW, SotW, and IMotW (Kings):
Strength
1 Str = 2.376 AP (2.6136 AP) (Cat)
1 Str = 2.16 AP (2.376 AP) (Bear)
1 Str = 2.2896 AP (2.51856 AP) (Bear with PotP)

Agility

1 Agi = 1.188 AP (1.3068 AP) (Cat only)
1 Agi = 0.01296% (0.014256%) Crit
1 Agi = 0.02592 (0.028512) % Dodge [before DR]
1 Agi = 2.16 (2.332) Armor

77.16 (70.146) Agi = 1% Crit
38.58 (35.073) Agi = 1% Dodge [before DR]

Stamina
1 Sta = 10.8 (11.88) Health (Cat)
1 Sta = 16.2 (17.82) Health (Bear)


Intellect
1 Int = 19.44 (21.384) Mana
1 Int = 0.007776% (0.0085536%) SpellCrit

128.60 (116.91) Int = 1% SpellCrit

 

Murna

On Page 6 there are the 3.1 numbers already. And nightcrowler, in the last post on page6, said that Imp. MotW and SotF would combine multiplicatively.

That means all your stats are wrong and the ones on page 6 are correct.

Besides, did I do the math correctly on armor?

 

charriu

1 * (1 + 3.7) * 1.1 * 1.33 = 6.8761, so yes.

 

Devinestorm

Just a feral Tanking euestion to which im struggleing to find an answer for.

When do deminishing returns make certain stats better to improve your dodge; or is this somthing that i should not be worried about?

Dodge rating
Defense rating
Agility

So my question is that is it more important to say take dodge to 40% with agility and then stack defense rating/dodge rating or is the deminishing returns cap too high to worry about?

 

Aldhissla

The diminishing returns is calculated after all of those stats combine, not individually for each. The different categories for diminishing returns are dodge, parry, etc.

Since druids can only dodge, you cannot 'juggle' avoidance stats in order to minimise diminishing returns, I guess you could choose to itemise for more mitigation or stamina instead of avoidance.

Edit: I guess the chance to be 'missed' from defense is a secondary avoidance category for bears, but since we cannot block or parry and are already crit immune it is generally not a good idea to stack defense as most of the budget is wasted.

 

Husyor

Well I think gemming for agi is always better than defense or dodge because of crit for threat and savage defense as well.

 

Dalamar

Has anyone been looking into the "value" of Attack Power, Strength, Crit Rating, even Haste are for Tanking. I am trying to get a feel for the weight of these stats compared to traditional Tanking stats such as Agility, Dodge Rating and Stamina, however it is so hard to compare items so different. I haven't really seen any gear that screams Druid Tanking piece, and items such as Loop of the Agile that have a variety of Tanking stats, both traditional and new, seems like worthwhile piece.

I really wonder what a Feral Tank would be wearing and what kind of stats we would be running in the devs minds after gearing out completely in Ulduar.

Specifically with Origin of Nightmares being the best Armor stick in the game, and the highest Stamina Two-Handed weapon with Agility, I wonder how long it will remain a best in slot Tanking piece. Or will the Attack Power gains from a Ilvl 239 Mace, Polearm or Staff outweigh this even without such solid tanking stats.


--- After a bit of looking The Leviathan's Coil seems like a solid upgrade for that ring slot.

 

halmmar

The arena weapons have a ton more agility and stamina. They're probably best in slot unless a hard mode boss drops a real tanking staff for ferals.

 

Nadir_Eonar

Indeed.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...on6_9806_5.jpg

Massively better than anything seen in the PvE loot tables so far. I seriously hope that there's something good in the hardmode drops and we're not going to be forced to arena for PvE gear again.

 

kalbear

If you want avoidance, agi is your best stat anyway; assuming kings, agi gives more avoidance point for point than dodge rating does.

On SD and the value of strength, crit, haste and AP: The value is exceedingly low. To give an example, using the best case scenario for SD (no overwrites, no buggy behavior) which gives about an 80% uptime on shields, and using one of many of the Ulduar bosses, 100 AP gives approximately .1% mitigation. In virtually all cases 100 armor would be better.

Crit rating would in theory be the best of the lot, but because of overwriting and the bugs associated with SD it becomes far too unreliable to stack.

Sadly, SD is essentially a non-entity in gearing. It gives around 2-3% mitigation with 6000 AP and 40% crit, and there's no real way to functionally improve that so much that it will help.

As for the arena weapons, they're hugely and laughably overbudget. They'll be nerfed shortly.

 

Syrvantez

I saw the numbers on the first post, but does anyone happen to have weights for all of these in the form of AEP values?

 

Boevis

Dalamar and Syrvantez, I suggest you read other threads in this forum, specifically Feral by Night.

 

Mihir

Supposedly they fucked up on the itemization and its has double the aglity it should have, still an awesome staff even if they change it.

 

kalbear

Question on bear Feral Faerie Fire - is the formula [AP * 0.15 + 1] correct for determining Faerie fire damage? This looks correct when compared to my damage output, but I wanted to confirm.

Similarly, is Faerie Fire (Feral): (29/14) * (DAMAGE + 632) correct for the threat output, or did the static value change in 3.1?

 

Discreet

From my own personal testing 1 stamina seems to be 14.8 hit points now in bear form, and 16.28 with kings (likely to the nerf to heart of the wild). For the record I have Heart of the wild, survival of the fittest, and improved motw at their respective maxed out values.

I used a trinket with 75 stamina to measure my hit points before and after I took it off. Before I took it off I had 37,107 hps, after I took it off I had 35,997. That is a difference of 1,110 for 75 stamina, or 14.8 per stamina. If you multiply that by 1.1 (for blessing of kings) you get 16.28 hit points per stamina.

I'm not sure if I did everything correctly but those were the values I saw. I think you may have forgotten to account for the nerf to heart of the wild.

 

manapaws

Just to confirm / add to the above post, had 32857 health, equipped 111 stamina trinket and went to 34507 health as a night elf druid tank specced in bear form with no buffs on.

1650 difference / 111 stamina = 14.864

- Tauren Druid (Realm first Naxx/Malygos)
- Gnome Mage (Realm first Sarth +3d)
- Nelf Druid (new main - progressing through Ulduar)