So as far as glyphs go, is it finalised that for a 1 MF rotation its SF, IS, Fall and for a 2 MF rotation, MF, IS, Fall? Because this is what is confusing me.
So as far as glyphs go, is it finalised that for a 1 MF rotation its SF, IS, Fall and for a 2 MF rotation, MF, IS, Fall? Because this is what is confusing me.
1 MF rotation, SFire MF IS wins.
2 MF rotation, SFall MF IS wins (by 8 DPS).
Extra considerations:
1) More than 1 target (Sarth, trash), SFall wins by a mile.
2) Lots of movement favors SFall (more "free" SFall and MF casts).
3) SFire scales better with SP (9+ extra ticks of MF every three minutes scales much better than 1 extra SFall every three minutes), and better with Haste (more GCD's spent casting SF, rather than instants). SFall scales better with crits (wtb MF dot crits).
And with the glyph that reduces the cooldown by another 30seconds you get 2 SFall in 3mins without the glyph and 3 with it - so one extra SFall every 3mins.
Right, sorry if this is obvious, but math is a little melty in my brain. Basically, the numbers point to either MF/SFall/IS or MF/SF/IS, depending on rotation, is that right?
Mainly want to ask because I need to not Glyph IS for the -hit (worked out less of a DPS loss for me to not glyph it than for a hunter to work the sting into the rotation, and I like feeling useful, so not an issue), so does that mean that I can take the others from both options, ie MF/SF/SFall? Or is that just pure stupidity? Just want to be sure taking the best of one and the best of another doesn't mean having two half-assed halves.
I'm fairly sure that's the way I want to go with it, but I have been known to make bad decisions in the past.
Does the utility of having a smaller radius of the glyph of focus negate the marginal increase in dps, or is this in a strict raid type environment, where aggroing tons of mobs isn't an issue?
Does the utility of having a smaller radius of the glyph of focus negate the marginal increase in dps, or is this in a strict raid type environment, where aggroing tons of mobs isn't an issue?
It just doesnt compare with the other glyphs available. MF, SF, Sfall and IS are all superior in comparison.
I was wondering, what if you have a 1.5 moonfire rotation? Basically casting 3 moonfires every 2 eclipse cycles. Though i suppose this is mainly due to the moonfire increase starfire gives. Or because the moonfires are increased by starfire would this be considered a 1 moonfire rotation?
I was wondering, what if you have a 1.5 moonfire rotation? Basically casting 3 moonfires every 2 eclipse cycles. Though i suppose this is mainly due to the moonfire increase starfire gives. Or because the moonfires are increased by starfire would this be considered a 1 moonfire rotation?
The tricky thing is, when are you casting the 3 MF's?
The whole 1MF v. 2MF thing arose (as I understand it, not sure if others were talking about this before Ador and I first did) because we're trying to avoid casting MF at any time other than during the Eclipse CD.
1) In any case, you should cast an MF right as the CD starts (or equivalently, ends, but the logic winds up the same). If you stop here, that's the 1MF rotation.
2) If you want, you can also clip this one and refresh at the end of the CD. That's the 2MF rotation.
But if (2) is worthwhile, then it's basically worthwhile every cycle. I know it feels lame to clip MF heavily, but due to the timing of Eclipse, there's no way to average out an intermediate number of casts. Either you think (2) is worthwhile and you do it each cycle, or you don't.
The tricky thing is, when are you casting the 3 MF's?
The whole 1MF v. 2MF thing arose (as I understand it, not sure if others were talking about this before Ador and I first did) because we're trying to avoid casting MF at any time other than during the Eclipse CD.
1) In any case, you should cast an MF right as the CD starts (or equivalently, ends, but the logic winds up the same). If you stop here, that's the 1MF rotation.
2) If you want, you can also clip this one and refresh at the end of the CD. That's the 2MF rotation.
But if (2) is worthwhile, then it's basically worthwhile every cycle. I know it feels lame to clip MF heavily, but due to the timing of Eclipse, there's no way to average out an intermediate number of casts. Either you think (2) is worthwhile and you do it each cycle, or you don't.
Or you cut your losses, swap the SF glyph for the Starfall one, and cast (2) with minimal clipping =D
small experience report:
I tested Starfall glyph two raids each 4h long in Ulduar (Razorscale, Ignis and XT-002 Deconstructor).
Starfall Glyph set: Starfall-MF-IS; Starfire Glyph Set: SF-MF_IS.
My spell rotation is:IS-MF-W-->SF(eclipse)-SF.
Experience:
to make it short: My dps dropped significantly with the Starfall glyph set, about 200-300dps in average at razorscale and even higher at Ignis. I was not able to maintain a level of dps that I reached with Starfire glyph set and that I am used to (3300-4500dps). A certain part of this drastic drop in dps is surely caused by using a spell rotation that I am not familiar too. (weaving MF into the rotation was not very smooth). I also cannot provide you at this point of time with a wws reports to back my statement. So currently take it as a educated guess. I am fully aware that our theorycraft gurus say that both sets are close to equal or even in favor of the Starfall glyph set.
But after these 8h trials, I am quite confident that the potential of Starfall glyph to become a standard combo for Moonkins is rather low. At least I decided finally to switch back.
Another effect that I find quite disturbing especially at the razorscale and XT-002 fight. Starfall creates unwanted threat (we separate pummelers at XT-002) and you are also not able to do focus damage on one target while other mobs in close proximity. (during XT-002 heart attacks). Actually you waste your dps in such situations.
Limitations of my report and possible flaws which might have had an impact:
First of all changing back to a 9s shorter MF duration (w/o SF glyph) is quite hard and I need probably some more time to get fully used to it after such a long time of using SF glyph. So I am sure that there are some moonkins out there that can do better than me. But I for myself decided to stick for now with the traditional glyph set SF-MF-IS.
Since MF is 15s with Splendor, I'll likely end up doing MF-IS-IS-MF.
I've always been a bit skeptical of this (which is why I've so far always been using 1MF), maybe you can clear it up some.
How much time is there really for DoT refreshing? You get to start ~1s before Eclipse ends typically. You ideally want to be done (GCD + Wrath cast + Wrath travel time) before Eclipse CD ends, so Wrath is hitting the boss as soon as possible. So you're generally going to have 13-14 seconds between first and last opportunity to refresh.
So in a 1MF cycle, you can IS twice 14 seconds apart and get an MF whenever you want, all with no clipping. But using MF-IS-IS-MF, you either clip a tick of the 15s MF anyway, or delay your Wraths a bit. And you're also clipping 1-2 ticks of the IS.
Are you taking all this into account when you compare the two? And how exactly is WC handling this timing issue? Because if you're assuming 2 full IS's and 2 full MF's per cycle, that's not possible.
Well sometimes if there isn't enough time to get enought starfire cast in on the end of the proc since it doesn't calculate crit till the end of the cast i refresh moonfire then but again i try never to refresh it during if there is time to cast starfire. It generally just plays out to be about 3 moonfires per 2 eclipse cycles mainly because of the extra time given by starfire.
I've always been a bit skeptical of this (which is why I've so far always been using 1MF), maybe you can clear it up some.
How much time is there really for DoT refreshing? You get to start ~1s before Eclipse ends typically. You ideally want to be done (GCD + Wrath cast + Wrath travel time) before Eclipse CD ends, so Wrath is hitting the boss as soon as possible. So you're generally going to have 13-14 seconds between first and last opportunity to refresh.
So in a 1MF cycle, you can IS twice 14 seconds apart and get an MF whenever you want, all with no clipping. But using MF-IS-IS-MF, you either clip a tick of the 15s MF anyway, or delay your Wraths a bit. And you're also clipping 1-2 ticks of the IS.
Are you taking all this into account when you compare the two? And how exactly is WC handling this timing issue? Because if you're assuming 2 full IS's and 2 full MF's per cycle, that's not possible.
What if you don't spec into Nature's Splendor? Then MF and IS both have a 12s duration, which negates clipping completely. Would it end up being a big dps loss?
I have been loving the Sfall, MF, IS glyph set up in Ulduar. The incidental AE from SFall is very nice and with all of the movement it is good to have an extra button when the DoTs are already rolling. My issue is coming with the use of the 2MF method and I am looking for a little clarification.
Right now I apply DoTs and iFF then begin casting wrath for the lunar eclipse, now the issue is that once it procs MF is almost falling off the mob. Do I A. Refresh the MF immediately after the proc to keep MF uptime maximized? or B. Let it fall off and just reapply it once the Eclipse proc is over during the iCD? The timing of the iCD works fine for refreshing MF/IS I am just curious if I should spend the first second or so of my eclipse proc to apply MF and head closer to 100% uptime, or if the 2 MF rotation should still have some down time on MF.
I had been using IS, MF and SFall Glyphs for about a week of raiding and had the same issues with MF either nearly finished or about halfway through its duration once Eclipse had procced. I tended to just refresh it when it fell off to get the last tick from it. I have since had to remove IS Glyph as it was requested by my guild due to paper tank syndrome so I now have SFall, MF and SF glyphs.
I do enjoy the reduced CD on StarFall though, it is especially effective for proccing NG when you are AoEing with hurricane which is reduced to a 6.5 second cast now for me if cast during an NG proc.
I seem to recall seeing on this forum that it's worth to refresh MF during Eclipse if you have more than half of the proc left (around 6 seconds), and not worth it if you have less, but I don't know if it refers to a 1 or 2 MF rotation.
I seem to recall seeing on this forum that it's worth to refresh MF during Eclipse if you have more than half of the proc left (around 6 seconds), and not worth it if you have less, but I don't know if it refers to a 1 or 2 MF rotation.
With IIS for the extra crit, if untalented then no
With IIS for the extra crit, if untalented then no
What are you basing this on?
----
Answering the original question, I cast the MF in that situation (but I run Glyph of Starfire). This isn't exactly rigorous (due to timing issues of DoT refreshing), but the DPET of a fully extended Moonfire is so much higher than that of even an Eclipsed Starfire that it's not a hard call.
I'm pretty sure you should cast the MF even in your case. Just glancing at my own stats in WrathCalcs, the DPET of an unextended MF is still likely higher than a Starfire (and if the MF is going to expire at the end of Eclipse anyway, the DPET comparison is all you need--there are no timing/rotation questions involved).
03/20/09, 1:14 PM
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