Balance Glyphs - Page 5

Moonkin Kai · 03/16/09, 8:04 PM

By "per-Eclipse", are you referring to the whole rotation from one Eclipse proc to the next or just until the end of the Eclipse?

• Hamlet · 03/16/09, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Moonkin Kai

By "per-Eclipse", are you referring to the whole rotation from one Eclipse proc to the next or just until the end of the Eclipse?

Whole rotation.

As far I as know, the theory of optimal Moonfire refreshing has never been worked out fully; it's pretty messy. Some of us have made posts on it before on these threads. But assuming you're trying to maximize Eclipse uptime rather than waste any time refreshing DoT's during Eclipse or during the Eclipse-proc phase, there are generally two options:

1) Cast Moonfire once during each Eclipse cooldown, either at the beginning or at the end (unclear which is better).
2) Cast Moonfire at both the beginning and end of each Eclipse cooldown (at the times when you should be refreshing IS). This clips the MF's and gives 100% uptime.

The addition of a new useful Glyph (Starfall) in 3.1 comparatively favors (2), as the value of Glyph of Starfire is mostly wasted, so the opportunity of cost of the new Glyph is minimal. I'm not sure which Glyph represents more DPS in (1) (Starfire or Moonfire); it would be easy to compute if I had WrathCalcs in front of me.

A bit long for a simple question, but I figure people are going to ask this a lot.

• Adoriele · 03/16/09, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Whole rotation.

As far I as know, the theory of optimal Moonfire refreshing has never been worked out fully; it's pretty messy. Some of us have made posts on it before on these threads. But assuming you're trying to maximize Eclipse uptime rather than waste any time refreshing DoT's during Eclipse or during the Eclipse-proc phase, there are generally two options:

1) Cast Moonfire once during each Eclipse cooldown, either at the beginning or at the end (unclear which is better).
2) Cast Moonfire at both the beginning and end of each Eclipse cooldown (at the times when you should be refreshing IS). This clips the MF's and gives 100% uptime.

The addition of a new useful Glyph (Starfall) in 3.1 comparatively favors (2), as the value of Glyph of Starfire is mostly wasted, so the opportunity of cost of the new Glyph is minimal. I'm not sure which Glyph represents more DPS in (1) (Starfire or Moonfire); it would be easy to compute if I had WrathCalcs in front of me.

A bit long for a simple question, but I figure people are going to ask this a lot.

Starfire glyph ends up being better in (1), by about a third again as much. For my current gear in 3.1, (1) SF: 110 DPS, MF: 75 DPS. (2) SF: 70 DPS, MF: 90 DPS. IS Glyph is worth ~120 DPS either way, all assuming you use IS, MF, SF glyphs.

IS, MF, SF total DPS, (1): 4565; (2) 4602
IS, MF, Fall total DPS, (1): 4521; (2) 4600
IS, SF, Fall total DPS, (1): 4556; (2) 4576

Note that these show the low end of the benefit for Starfall Glyph, as I divide the damage of Starfall over its cooldown to add its DPS. Hence it models a fight where Starfall comes off cooldown just when the boss dies. If it came off cooldown 10s before the boss died, the benefit would be much larger.

Moonwhisper · 03/18/09, 11:50 AM

Thanks Adoriele for the comparison.
I assume that your calculation is based on a best in slot equipped moonkin with 4T7 items.
I also assume that it not includes the changes to the spell coefficient of IS.
Could you please clarify this.

>Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus -- Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 6%.
>Druid T8 Balance 4P Bonus -- Each time your Insect Swarm deals damage, you have a chance to make your next Starfire cast within until >cancelled instant.

I have some questions to our math experts in regard to the forthcoming new T8 Boni and their influence on glyphs:
1. T8 does not give any benefit to IS as 2T7 did. On the other hand IS spell-coefficient is increased. Does the later outweigh the 2T7 Bonus and makes IS glyph more valuable?
2. Does the relative value of Starfall glyph increases because it supports procs of eclipse and therefore support 2T8 bonus?

In summary, which impact would have an exchange of T7 by T8 items on the relative value of glyphs. Any ideas?
(assumed that the aforementioned Boni on PTR hit LIFE server)

• Adoriele · 03/18/09, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Moonwhisper

Thanks Adoriele for the comparison.
I assume that your calculation is based on a best in slot equipped moonkin with 4T7 items.
I also assume that it not includes the changes to the spell coefficient of IS.
Could you please clarify this.

>Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus -- Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 6%.
>Druid T8 Balance 4P Bonus -- Each time your Insect Swarm deals damage, you have a chance to make your next Starfire cast within until >cancelled instant.

I have some questions to our math experts in regard to the forthcoming new T8 Boni and their influence on glyphs:
1. T8 does not give any benefit to IS as 2T7 did. On the other hand IS spell-coefficient is increased. Does the later outweigh the 2T7 Bonus and makes IS glyph more valuable?
2. Does the relative value of Starfall glyph increases because it supports procs of eclipse and therefore support 2T8 bonus?

In summary, which impact would have an exchange of T7 by T8 items on the relative value of glyphs. Any ideas?
(assumed that the aforementioned Boni on PTR hit LIFE server)

Bagh, apparently I forgot to enable 4T7 (I'd been testing out the bonuses from T8, forgot to switch back to current). It's using the 3.1 engine for NG, increased IS coefficient, etc., though. Here's the numbers with 4T7 equipped (note, this is also not BiS gear, I have quite a few upgrades left to get. I still barely break 4500 on Patch, as an idea of where I am):

(1) MF: 76.66, SF: 111.57, IS: 120.10
(2) MF: 90.67, SF: 59.88, IS: 120.10

Totals
IS, MF, SF: (1) 4730.31, (2) 4752.22
IS, MF, Fall: (1) 4687.18, (2) 4760.78
IS, SF, Fall: (1) 4722.09, (2) 4729.99
MF, SF, Fall: (1) 4678.65, (2) 4700.56

Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs, so I'm not sure what that's about. Actually, the only direct impact any of the Tier bonuses has on Glyphs is 2T7, and only if the 30% from the Glyph multiplies with the 10% from the bonus, which is the assumption WC makes.

As for relative value of 4T7 and 2T8, 4T7 wins by far. 4T7 is worth 149.79 DPS, and 2T8 is worth 67.10 DPS. This only takes into account the value of the bonuses themselves, though, while T8 will have better stats than T7, which will offset some of that difference, though likely not near enough. On the other hand, preliminary calcs of 4T8 using a proc rate of 5% (just a guess) show it giving 300 DPS on its own, so I'd be very surprised if we see that bonus make it live. If it does, we'll have the same problem we had with 4T5.

• Hamlet · 03/18/09, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs

Starfall will increase uptime of the new non-consumed 3.1 NG. Might be best to align it with the Eclipse-proc phase for faster Wraths and reduced proc time. Or it might be best to use it during the Eclipse CD to improve NG uptime of the uneclipsed Starfires (it's probably a waste to use it during Eclipse).

In either case, it might be optimal use it once every 2 cycles instead of once every 60 seconds (as it's a pretty small delay).

• Adoriele · 03/18/09, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Starfall will increase uptime of the new non-consumed 3.1 NG. Might be best to align it with the Eclipse-proc phase for faster Wraths and reduced proc time). Might also be best to use it once every 2 cycles instead of once every 60 seconds (as it's a pretty small delay).

Eh, Wrath is going to have a high enough uptime on NG, that using Fall during the proc-phase will be a waste. Better to enhance the ICD phase of SF, which has a drastically lower uptime.

• Hamlet · 03/18/09, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Eh, Wrath is going to have a high enough uptime on NG, that using Fall during the proc-phase will be a waste. Better to enhance the ICD phase of SF, which has a drastically lower uptime.

Yeah, I just edited to add this. Point is, Starfall will probably best be used at a certain point in the cycle since the 30+x cycle lines up close to a 60/90s cooldown.

• Adoriele · 03/18/09, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Yeah, I just edited to add this. Point is, Starfall will probably best be used at a certain point in the cycle since the 30+x cycle lines up close to a 60/90s cooldown.

Yeah. I'm toying with adding options to WC to allow for sustained vs. specific fights. I.E. giving an expected length of fight field and doing more rigorous fitting of things to determine exact values. Would muck with ISVs, though, so I don't want to force it.

Moonwhisper · 03/19/09, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs

I was thinking of the additional crits that starfall causes which might reduce the average number of necessary wraths needed to trigger eclipse or seen from the other side: crits of starfall should increase the total uptime of eclipse per given time frame.

• Adoriele · 03/19/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Moonwhisper

I was thinking of the additional crits that starfall causes which might reduce the average number of necessary wraths needed to trigger eclipse or seen from the other side: crits of starfall should increase the total uptime of eclipse per given time frame.

Starfall cannot proc Eclipse. Therefor it cannot reduce the number of Wraths necessary to proc Eclipse. Also, as I mentioned before, Wrath has a high enough NG uptime that Starfall cannot increase it meaningfully, so Starfall will not decrease the amount of time it takes to proc Eclipse.

Starfall has no meaningful effect on Eclipse.

Boswell · 03/19/09, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Starfall cannot proc Eclipse. Therefor it cannot reduce the number of Wraths necessary to proc Eclipse. Also, as I mentioned before, Wrath has a high enough NG uptime that Starfall cannot increase it meaningfully, so Starfall will not decrease the amount of time it takes to proc Eclipse.

Starfall has no meaningful effect on Eclipse.

I think what he means is that Starfall guarentees consistant Nature's Grace procs, which in turn increases the amount of Starfire/Wraths casted, which then increases the chance of Eclipse procing.

• Adoriele · 03/19/09, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Boswell

I think what he means is that Starfall guarentees consistant Nature's Grace procs, which in turn increases the amount of Starfire/Wraths casted, which then increases the chance of Eclipse procing.

No. No it doesn't. Eclipse has an ICD longer than its duration. So you have a specific "I want to proc Eclipse" phase. If you're not a moron, you're casting Wrath during that phase, because you want the Lunar Eclipse proc (yes, this will still be the case in 3.1). Wrath has ~95% NG uptime in crappy gear, and it only gets better, because you get 3 wraths per NG proc instead of the 2 SF gets. Because it's got such high uptime, you'd be stupid to use Starfall during that phase with the intention of increasing Wrath uptime. At any other time, you increase NG uptime, but cannot increase your expected time to proc Eclipse because you're in the ICD.

So. Again, and with much more feeling. Starfall will. not. increase. Eclipse. procs.

Boswell · 03/19/09, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

No. No it doesn't. Eclipse has an ICD longer than its duration. So you have a specific "I want to proc Eclipse" phase. If you're not a moron, you're casting Wrath during that phase, because you want the Lunar Eclipse proc (yes, this will still be the case in 3.1). Wrath has ~95% NG uptime in crappy gear, and it only gets better, because you get 3 wraths per NG proc instead of the 2 SF gets. Because it's got such high uptime, you'd be stupid to use Starfall during that phase with the intention of increasing Wrath uptime. At any other time, you increase NG uptime, but cannot increase your expected time to proc Eclipse because you're in the ICD.

So. Again, and with much more feeling. Starfall will. not. increase. Eclipse. procs.

Oh I know that, I wasn't making a statement, I was merely interpreting what he meant because you might have taken it in a different context.

Moonwhisper · 03/19/09, 7:02 PM

I got it ...thanks for explaination...and the feelings