Balance Glyphs - Page 7

• Hamlet · 04/20/09, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Or you cut your losses, swap the SF glyph for the Starfall one, and cast (2) with minimal clipping =D

Pretty sure this is what I'm going to do.

When precisely and in what order are you currently casting your IS/MF's each cycle?

• Adoriele · 04/20/09, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Pretty sure this is what I'm going to do.

When precisely and in what order are you currently casting your IS/MF's each cycle?

Since MF is 15s with Splendor, I'll likely end up doing MF-IS-IS-MF.

• Hamlet · 04/20/09, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Since MF is 15s with Splendor, I'll likely end up doing MF-IS-IS-MF.

I've always been a bit skeptical of this (which is why I've so far always been using 1MF), maybe you can clear it up some.

How much time is there really for DoT refreshing? You get to start ~1s before Eclipse ends typically. You ideally want to be done (GCD + Wrath cast + Wrath travel time) before Eclipse CD ends, so Wrath is hitting the boss as soon as possible. So you're generally going to have 13-14 seconds between first and last opportunity to refresh.

So in a 1MF cycle, you can IS twice 14 seconds apart and get an MF whenever you want, all with no clipping. But using MF-IS-IS-MF, you either clip a tick of the 15s MF anyway, or delay your Wraths a bit. And you're also clipping 1-2 ticks of the IS.

Are you taking all this into account when you compare the two? And how exactly is WC handling this timing issue? Because if you're assuming 2 full IS's and 2 full MF's per cycle, that's not possible.

Latas · 04/21/09, 3:34 AM

Well sometimes if there isn't enough time to get enought starfire cast in on the end of the proc since it doesn't calculate crit till the end of the cast i refresh moonfire then but again i try never to refresh it during if there is time to cast starfire. It generally just plays out to be about 3 moonfires per 2 eclipse cycles mainly because of the extra time given by starfire.

sp101 · 05/04/09, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I've always been a bit skeptical of this (which is why I've so far always been using 1MF), maybe you can clear it up some.

How much time is there really for DoT refreshing? You get to start ~1s before Eclipse ends typically. You ideally want to be done (GCD + Wrath cast + Wrath travel time) before Eclipse CD ends, so Wrath is hitting the boss as soon as possible. So you're generally going to have 13-14 seconds between first and last opportunity to refresh.

So in a 1MF cycle, you can IS twice 14 seconds apart and get an MF whenever you want, all with no clipping. But using MF-IS-IS-MF, you either clip a tick of the 15s MF anyway, or delay your Wraths a bit. And you're also clipping 1-2 ticks of the IS.

Are you taking all this into account when you compare the two? And how exactly is WC handling this timing issue? Because if you're assuming 2 full IS's and 2 full MF's per cycle, that's not possible.

What if you don't spec into Nature's Splendor? Then MF and IS both have a 12s duration, which negates clipping completely. Would it end up being a big dps loss?

Eilt · 05/05/09, 8:45 AM

I have been loving the Sfall, MF, IS glyph set up in Ulduar. The incidental AE from SFall is very nice and with all of the movement it is good to have an extra button when the DoTs are already rolling. My issue is coming with the use of the 2MF method and I am looking for a little clarification.

Right now I apply DoTs and iFF then begin casting wrath for the lunar eclipse, now the issue is that once it procs MF is almost falling off the mob. Do I A. Refresh the MF immediately after the proc to keep MF uptime maximized? or B. Let it fall off and just reapply it once the Eclipse proc is over during the iCD? The timing of the iCD works fine for refreshing MF/IS I am just curious if I should spend the first second or so of my eclipse proc to apply MF and head closer to 100% uptime, or if the 2 MF rotation should still have some down time on MF.

Frenzi · 05/07/09, 6:52 AM

I had been using IS, MF and SFall Glyphs for about a week of raiding and had the same issues with MF either nearly finished or about halfway through its duration once Eclipse had procced. I tended to just refresh it when it fell off to get the last tick from it. I have since had to remove IS Glyph as it was requested by my guild due to paper tank syndrome so I now have SFall, MF and SF glyphs.

I do enjoy the reduced CD on StarFall though, it is especially effective for proccing NG when you are AoEing with hurricane which is reduced to a 6.5 second cast now for me if cast during an NG proc.

Angelfire · 05/11/09, 1:26 AM

I seem to recall seeing on this forum that it's worth to refresh MF during Eclipse if you have more than half of the proc left (around 6 seconds), and not worth it if you have less, but I don't know if it refers to a 1 or 2 MF rotation.

Frenzi · 05/11/09, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Angelfire

I seem to recall seeing on this forum that it's worth to refresh MF during Eclipse if you have more than half of the proc left (around 6 seconds), and not worth it if you have less, but I don't know if it refers to a 1 or 2 MF rotation.

With IIS for the extra crit, if untalented then no

• Hamlet · 05/14/09, 3:43 AM

Originally Posted by Frenzi

With IIS for the extra crit, if untalented then no

What are you basing this on?

----

Answering the original question, I cast the MF in that situation (but I run Glyph of Starfire). This isn't exactly rigorous (due to timing issues of DoT refreshing), but the DPET of a fully extended Moonfire is so much higher than that of even an Eclipsed Starfire that it's not a hard call.

I'm pretty sure you should cast the MF even in your case. Just glancing at my own stats in WrathCalcs, the DPET of an unextended MF is still likely higher than a Starfire (and if the MF is going to expire at the end of Eclipse anyway, the DPET comparison is all you need--there are no timing/rotation questions involved).

Frenzi · 05/14/09, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

What are you basing this on?

Sorry for no explanation, I don't see MF beneficial to refresh if IIS is untalented during eclipse. The DPET of a MF is higher but you have to look at the damage you gain from MF during the Eclipse compared to what you potentially lose. Lets say you cast the MF and it costs you an extra critical starfire during eclipse, that is lets say around 6k, however not casting the MF allows you that extra SF but it means you lost a few ticks. Which is better? At about a third through eclipse I don't really see much benefit to casting MF unless you have IIS talented.

I see the 3% crit as being worth refreshing as it increases your chances of gaining additional damage from our starfires, I have no math to back this up so please point me out if I am wrong.

Nilaus · 05/14/09, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by Frenzi

Sorry for no explanation, I don't see MF beneficial to refresh if IIS is untalented during eclipse. The DPET of a MF is higher but you have to look at the damage you gain from MF during the Eclipse compared to what you potentially lose. Lets say you cast the MF and it costs you an extra critical starfire during eclipse, that is lets say around 6k, however not casting the MF allows you that extra SF but it means you lost a few ticks. Which is better? At about a third through eclipse I don't really see much benefit to casting MF unless you have IIS talented.

I see the 3% crit as being worth refreshing as it increases your chances of gaining additional damage from our starfires, I have no math to back this up so please point me out if I am wrong.

WOW! that was a lot of anecdotal evidence in one paragraph. Please turn down the "lets say" and turn up the actual calculations if you make a statement as a fact.

The original question is very valid indeed and a questions I would very much like answered here if possible.

Frenzi · 05/14/09, 8:28 AM

Gray Matter: Eclipse: Part 3 - What about my DoTs?

Erdluf · 05/14/09, 9:36 AM

Originally Posted by Frenzi

Gray Matter: Eclipse: Part 3 - What about my DoTs?

His math says it is better to refresh MF with about 9s or more of Eclipse. IIS has very little impact on his results (a fraction of a second).

His math shows it is better to refresh IS only during the first three or four seconds of Eclipse. However that was with the old IS coefficient (.76 for 6 ticks). Plug in the new coefficient (1.2 for 6 ticks) and IS becomes very similar to MF (worth casting with as few as 9s left).

His math doesn't consider 2t8. 2t8 increases the value of spamming your nuke during Eclipse. I think that that if you plug 2t8 into his forumula, you need about 1 more second of DoT time to be worthwhile (rougly 10s left on Eclipse before refreshing a DoT).

4t8 is obviously going to favor High IS uptime. I haven't attempted to determine where it moves the break-even point for IS during Eclipse.

Graylo also doesn't consider the dynamics going into your next Eclipse. Suppose you proc Eclipse every 34s to 40s. If you refuse to cast MF during Eclipse, you have a choice between 1 MF per cycle (no clipping, average about 13s downtime per cycle) or 2 MF per cycle (clip two to five ticks per cycle).

If you apply MF early in Eclipse, you get to keep MF during the current Eclipse, the gap after the current Eclipse, and most (not all) of the next Eclipse, with no clipping.

All of the above assumes a target-dummy type of fight. If it is likely that you have to move soon, it becomes a bit better to save your instants for movement. If pushbacks or interrupts are likely, then SF (including SF during Eclipse) becomes less valuable.

If you know you are going to have to switch targets soon (say from Emalon to one of his Minions) you should look at pure DPET considerations, and cast DoTs even if it is late in Eclipse.

Frenzi · 05/14/09, 11:26 AM

All of the above assumes a target-dummy type of fight. If it is likely that you have to move soon, it becomes a bit better to save your instants for movement. If pushbacks or interrupts are likely, then SF (including SF during Eclipse) becomes less valuable.

Well I think a big problem when calculating how eclipse works is that it isn't practical and I honestly don't use the numbers as a bible to play my class. I realise this is a theorycrafting forum and I would be stupid to not take the calculations into consideration but there are too many things that can happen and will happen which will alter how you cast. Ignis is a great example as while you have to stop casting to make sure you don't get interupted, this is a great time to refresh your dots especially as you can do it while in the air.

During eclipse I don't refresh MF if Eclipse has less than half it's duration or if I am not on an even numbered duration when my SF finishes casting as my cast time during NG in a lunar elclipse is 1.9 seconds. So for instance I know for my character if eclipse's duration was about 7.5 seconds when my last SF finishes that it is generally safe for me to cast MF and not lose an eclipsed SF.