Rijndael

edit: Someone beat me to it, please delete.

 

Rijndael

I am sorry, but if a glyph does that little on a supposedly ideal fight for it, it is worthless. (It may be Lightflower's guild is less on the ball about keeping people topped off, so it heals more for him). In my own Steelbreaker attempts Rejuv glyph did about 2%.

 

Vazu

Considering I rarely use direct heals apart from Regrowth, it's working for me.

Oh, and here's another log from 10m hard mode Mimiron. We finally got the fight last week. Lot better glyph results in this log. Pretty sure this is for our 3-5 attempts and the actual kill itself combined. Part of the fun with this glyph is in the strategy. The idea is to keep Rejuv on people who are the most likely to be at < 50% health for a second or so. Tanks work great. Fights with tons of AE and random downs damage are good.

Wow Web Stats

 

• uliko

Steelbreaker is as far from the ideal rejuv glyph fight as you can get. It's low and steady damage meaning nobody will ever be below 50% and thus the glyph will never trigger. You want lots of raid damage to have lots of rejuvs around combined with spike damage to bring people below half so the ideal fight is something along the lines of Freya where the glyph is usually 2-3%. It gives around the same total healing as the regrowth glyph would do if and only if every single regrowth got the bonus and none of the extra healing translated into overheal. It's not alot of extra healing but it's there when you need it the most.

The nourish glyph simply can't compete due to the sheer number of rejuvenations cast compared to nourish, maybe if you tank healed the majority of the content but I find that hard to believe. That leaves lifebloom and innervate as decent options for the last slot. Personally as it stands right now I'd prefer to have my bloom come sooner rather then later so that leaves innervate. 3k mana never feels like it will make a huge difference, either I need innervate or I don't. I hardly ever find myself in a position where an extra 3k mana will allow me to give it away.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Ezarg

OK - so the "supposed" function of the rejuv glyph is to quickly heal people that fall below 50% - whether this works out or not is a separate problem but that's why people put that glyph in.

This is not an "+ overall healing done" glyph so there is no sense discussing how much total healing increase that is.

So, what can we replace this with to perform the same function?

Glyph of HT is the only one that functionally comes close - point is that rejuv glyph will trigger on its own, without even you paying any attention to that - this is "fire and forget" thing.

GoRegrowth, GoNourish, GoWG - those are all "+ overall healing done" glyphs and if you feel like you need more oomph, you put one of those in and it's mostly up to your preference, your role in the raid, and current Blizzard's mood - which of them is the #1 pick.

GoLB, GoSM, GoInnervate - those are all practically mana glyphs, with GoLB and GoSM also saving you some GCDs. If you don't need extra mana, you don't need any of them. GoLB extends your LB cycle from ~25 seconds to ~28 seconds = ~20mp5 and an extra GCD every 2 mins or so. If you use SM every 20 secs or so, GoSM = 15mp5 and an extra GCD every 20 secs or so. Personally I use swiftmend maybe 9 times / 6 minutes so it's more like half of those numbers. GoInnervate will give you some 3k mana / 5 mins so it's flat ~50mp5.

 

Lightflower

I contend that if you can keep people topped off all the time in P3 Council then you are bringing too many raid healers.

Regardless, 2% bonus healing, especially at a time when you need bonus healing the most, seems to me like a pretty good deal for a glyph. Let's face it, if there was a glyph that read "Glyph of Healing: all of your healing spells heal for 2% more" then we'd be falling over ourselves to equip it.

 

Shelendil

And when you have eliminated all other options--don't use direct heals, don't want lifebloom blooming later, don't need mana, rejuv not as useful as it seems--rebirth really isn't all that bad. It's invaluable to resurrect a tank at full health on Steelbreaker, and extremely useful on heavy raid damage fights like hard mode Thorim, Hodir, Freya, XT, and I suspect Mimiron as well. Of course, if no one ever needs a battle rez in a tight situation, well, you're doing something right.

 

Ezarg

In terms of total healing increase that's just not that great... WG glyph will probably give you more - in my case 15% or so on 20% of your effective healing is more like 3%. So if healing throughput is what you're after the combo WG+Nourish+RJ is probably the most powerful out there, but for healing throughput RJ is really the last option.

 

Eilt

This is our IC Hard Mode Parse - WOL - IC Hard Mode

So the glyphs being used here are nourish, WG, and Swiftmend.

Swiftmend was used 153 times. That is 153 times when the HoT remained on the target to keep healing (as mentioned there is pretty constant predictable damage incoming) so it is probably being used.

Wild Growth was 22% of the healing done, and since we are grouped for much of this encounter the WG glyph hitting an extra person is pretty big. I feel confident that most people will agree that these 2 glyphs are a given (hopefully).

So if we were to replace the Nourish glyph for the rejuv what would we lose?

Well, Nourish was used 31 times averaging 4.3k, the issue here is determining how many of these landed on a target with a hot on them...

However, just for comparisons sake even assuming that EVERY Nourish cast landed had a target with a hot on it, that would mean that the glyph provided 6% of the 134,272 healing that Nourish did. (I am new to WOL, is this number including the ~38% overhealing?) Assuming that this is not including the OH and the 134,272 is all actual healing, 6% would be ~8,056 healing extra done as a result of the glyph.

Compare this to the ~17,400 healing that Vazu got from his glyph according to this kill:
Wow Web Stats


These particular numbers seem to lend credence to the Rejuv glyph, although I can not begin to try and calculate how many people were below 50% in our raid. I will talk to this druid and see if he will throw in a Glyph of Rejuv for this fight when we kill him next to try and provide more data for comparison.

And sorry if I messed anything up in the math above, if I did let me know and I will adjust it.

Edit: Erdluf brought up some very good points, especially on Living Seed, a generous 4% from that is ~4,586 which brings our Nourish glyph up to ~12,642 which is much more respectable compared to the Rejuv glyphs ~17,400. Factor in the chance for multiple HoTs and the gap will close even more, however it should be noted that these are pretty optimistic assumptions (4% of Living Seed and every Nourish has at least 1 HoT).

I also noted that the crit Nourish was lower than the average which is why I ended up using the numbers as if OH was not included, it seems a safe bet that this is the case then. Thanks!

 

Erdluf

Eilt,

I don't think it changes your conclusion, but it is likely that the average Nourish had something more than one HoT on it (as a wild guess, say 1.3, since Lb ticks + Wg ticks were a bit more than Rj ticks).

Also some percentage (perhaps 2-4%) of the Living Seed healing should be attributed to the Nourish Glyph.

I assume that the WoL heal numbers are showing effective heals. Notice that the average Nourish crit hit for less than the average Nourish non-crit (and for Swiftmend crits did only about 20% more on average).

 

red

I don't think it's optimistic to assume the average nourish target has 1 hot on them. I can't speak for every druid, but I often go an entire week without landing nourish on a raid member who doesn't have a hot. When I do, it was a mistake.

 

Vazu

Here's a good list of what I personally feel is a good barometer in choosing a third major glyph. Granted this is a Nourish vs. Rejuvenation post, but I'll comment at the end about the other glyphs too. I personally find that the only real viable options for a third glyph should be Nourish or Rejuevation with Innervate being a distant third and rarely needed.


1. What kind of guild are you in? Are you raiding 25m content?

2. If your guild is raiding 25m content, are you working on hard modes? By hard modes I don't mean Disarmed or Quick Shave. I'm talking about hard modes which result in hard mode loot.

3. What is my role in this guild? Am I expected to help tank heal, or can I focus on the raid 90% of the time? Do I trust our tank healers, or am I constantly needing to help them with more than just HOTs? Think about this carefully. Do you regularly raid with holy Paladin(s) or healing Priests?

--


1 - The larger your raid gets, the more options you have for direct healing classes to heal tanks. If all you raid is 10m content, it's easier to rely on Nourish. Reason? There are fewer targets to put HOTs on and thus spot healing with glyphed Nourish will provide slightly better results. It's even more magnified if you don't raid at all and just do heroics.

2 - Some of the hard modes in 25m Ulduar are difficult enough that raid members are frequently below 50% health. The raid healing requirements are so high that we simply don't have the time to try and get a benefit from Nourish. If I spot heal someone, what are the odds I'm going to check and make sure they have a HOT on them first? By the time you get a HOT up, your resto Shaman or holy Priests have already raid healed and Noursh counts as overhealing half the time anyway. Keep in mind that overhealing is bad for a resto Druid in particular. It's time wasted where you could have put a HOT on someone and allowed it to actually count toward your effective healing. As you start clearing harder and harder content, your goal as a resto Druid should be to get as much as you possibly can from HOTs and raid healing. For many encounters we're the best raid healers in the game and that includes holy Priests. Why spoil that raid healing goodness by trying to water down your glyphs with something contrary to what we're best at?

3 - Some guy in a previous post above mentioned that he raids with three resto Druids. Ok, so first of all that's not normal at all. Most guilds raid with two at most. From a raid comp standpoint, if you sit a resto Shaman for a resto Druid, you lose Mana Tide. That benefits caster DPS which results in faster kills, etc etc. Holy Paladins and Priests are the best direct healing classes in the game. If you as a resto Druid are being asked to tank heal, something is probably wrong with your comp. By tank heal I don't mean "help healing" with HOTs. I'm talking about a raid leader who says you're responsible for the tank living or dying and that's your assignment. Now, I'm not saying we can't do that. But in order for us to be most effective on very high damage tank fights (Algalon, Council, etc), it would help to not only glyph for it, but to re-spec as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is, our identity as Druid healers is not to direct heal the tank and keep him alive. If your raid needs you to do that, your Paladins and Priests either suck or you need to start recruiting.

--

Lifebloom as a glyph makes no sense. First of all, after Blizzard changed the mana cost, it's just not good anymore. I used to roll these on tanks but now I almost never use it. Adding 1 second to the end is great if you're rolling, but how often do you actually do that? Again, especially in hard modes, you're just not going to sit there and try to time re-casting Lifebloom to get the maximum benefit on a tank. Someone will die while you're playing badly.

Innervate is interesting as a glyph. Especially after the changes and with some of the harder hard modes being very mana intensive (XT, Council, etc), it has it's place. But again, I really think it's just better to wear a regen trinket and use unglyphed Innervate on yourself or others. You probably lose more by taking this glyph and not having Rejuvenation, than you would by having access to more mana. Part of managing mana is about gear, talents, player ability and the encounter itself. Good healers even on the hardest fights probably shouldn't "need" an Innervate. If they do, they can just have mine. I don't need the regen for myself too. But I'm not saying it's a crappy glyph. It just depends on your raid.

 

bluree

A parse from our World of Logs - HM IC Attempts last night for any of you number crunchers. Both druids ran same glyphs(WG,Nour,SM) and same healing assignment(raid healing) with a basic setup of 1disc, 2holy, 1 rsham, 2tanks 17dps

From personal experience I never saw anyone drop below 70% much less 50% for the Rejuv glyph to be of any use on this fight imo.

 

Vazu

Severance had 49,634 healing from Nourish. He cast this spell 9 times.
Sevna had 88,187 healing from Nourish. He cast this spell 22 times.

Nourish glyph is 6% added healing for each HOT rolling. How many times do you think a Nourish landed on someone where either Druid had their HOTs on the person? Be realistic. Even if 50% of the time you had a Rejuv on someone and landed a Nourish, thats a whopping 6% added healing to the spell. You're not gunna get 12%, 18%, etc etc. Because we don't really use Lifebloom on the raid and we don't cast Regrowth on the raid either. That leaves Wild Growth which is a huge, huge wild card. Maybe once in a great while you'll Nourish someone and see a 12% return. But it would be like 5% of the time or something stupid low like that. So basically all you did was glyph for a direct heal spell which MIGHT increase by 6% if the person has a Rejuv on them. Trust me man, I used glyph of Nourish for a long time. But after really looking at my role and what I cast most to keep our raid up, it didn't make any sense anymore.

 

red

This is not my experience at all. I would say that the number of times I land nourish on a target with a hot on them is defintiely above 95% of casts. The amount of nourishes on targets with 2 hots is probably around 50%. Why would you cast nourish on somebody without a hot? That makes no sense.

On IC for example, the only time I cast nourish is a timed cast to land right after fusion punch, or on another tank with hots that I see below 50%. If I desperately need to direct heal somebody who has no hot, I will use SM+HT or Regrowth. However, that is a really rare scenario. Usually I will just toss a rejuv, maybe wg, and move on.

 

Vazu

What experience? I looked at your armory and the guild you're in hasn't cleared a single hard mode fight in 25m Ulduar. You have time to HOT and heal people because nobody is in any danger. I mentioned this in my post above. People who aren't working on hard modes just don't have a whole lot to contribute when it comes to discussing the merits of glyphing properly. The vast majority of people here don't care how you heal normal mode fights in Ulduar. I could train my 12 year old nephew how to heal normal fights in Ulduar.

 

Rijndael

There is no need to be rude. If anything, healers from guilds who don't clear hardmodes often have a harder, not easier job. This is because the dps in such guilds tend to be less raid-aware, and get hit more by stuff. So paradoxically, their raid tends to be in MORE danger, and this danger tends to be 'bursty.' We had our first Hodir hard kill recently, and on our kill, the Rejuv glyph actually did 0.9% healing (tiny amount!), because DPS actually woke up, stayed out of icicles, and kept the biting cold stacks to 0. On our unsuccessful attempts (which mirror what happens in non-hardmode kills), the amount healed by the glyph went up to 3-4% because people took a lot more bursty avoidable damage.

 

Eddyqw

Theres absolutely no need to be such a jerk about it, regardless of the name of this site. I could come along and say the same thing about YOUR raid experience - but it wouldn't make your argument any less valid. He said "in his experience" and thats exactly what he meant. He might not be able to contribute to discussions about the best glyphs for hard modes, but he can certainly contribute to discussion about the best glyphs in general. Personally I don't see that theres much distinction - with the exception of General Vezax, most hard modes aren't all that different from normal modes - theres just more of everything (in the damage taken sense).

Back on topic: I agree that Glyph of Rejuvenation is much more valuable than Glyph of Nourish. In Ulduar a number of fights, especially hard modes, have raid damage spikes that can and do push people below 50% hp on a regular basis. I've seen it do 6% of my healing on some Freya+3 attempts. Sure, its quite possible that a lot of the damage was due to poor play/was avoidable, but if you keep a good player alive even though they make a mistake, they'll learn from it. Glyph of Nourish is still a great tank healing glyph, but if you're playing to your strength as a druid (raid healing), then you wont be casting Nourish anywhere near enough.

 

Vazu

This is totally false.

Freya w/o any of her elders is the same fight as Freya with her 3 elders up?
Mimiron is the same exact fight (just more damage) in normal mode vs. hard mode?
XT is the same fight in both modes?

I'm sorry for coming on strong in my statements above, but I still stand by them. Making glyph suggestions when you aren't working on hard modes is like giving advice to someone on a 2500 rated arena team when you're at 1600. The game at 2500 is totally different in terms of strategy and ability level, than it is at 1600. Gear choices, talent choices and everything else can be (and usually are) quite a bit different. I don't even arena and I know that. But I'm not going to go into the PVP forums and start telling some of those guys how it's done. Because I really don't know how to get to 2500. I've never experienced play at that level. I guess I just don't like it when someone makes a claim that something is better than something else without experiencing raid content at higher levels. At the very least getting Hodir, Thorim and Council hard modes down would give players a much better appreciation for what we need and don't need. But again, I do apologize for the tone of my previous post.

 

Ezarg

I agree with Vazu to a degree

There is a significant change in gameplay that people have to make to break 10k real-time effective healing on any 25-man fight in Ulduar - hard-mode or normal. Druids have easier time than most other classes because we're the least dependent on raid's positioning.

I must say that at least from my experience, once you start breaking 10k regularly, it's an eye-opener - it changes how you think about healing as well as for that matter people stop assigning you to silly niches cause everyone knows that it's better to have a 10k healer than a 5k healer. And other healers will follow - most people in your raid have roughly same gear as you, so they see that if you can do 10k, they should be able to do it, too (and there are plenty of examples from guilds that have various healers posting those numbers).

Average healing for the fight on a normal mode doesn't really reflect very well what your healing ability is. If you have flat 3.5k effective healing for the whole fight on say normal Hodir, you are not really doing very well. At the same time if you peak at 10k and this goes down to 0, it may still average out to 3.5k, but that's a completely different picture - you get people topped off faster and your potential throughput is 3 times the throughput of a person with flat 3.5k healing.

 

Kemi

Post deleted due to errors. Hard mode or it don't count!

 

Ezarg

Honestly, not being jerky about this, if you are not doing high-end content, it doesn't really matter that much what glyphs you use and you can mix and match to your delight.

If you are doing high-end stuff, everyone in the raid has to follow a pretty strict plan and your glyphs have to min-max your role in that plan.

 

red

Am I to understand that the way druids heal heroic hard modes is to cast plenty of nourishes on targets without hots? Since you know, that was the entirety of my post which you're apparently posting contrary to. I don't understand how you figure such a large portion of druid nourish casts will land on un-hotted targets.

For the record, we focus on 10 man hard modes since we don't have 25 raiders in our guild and have to pug players for heroic uld. It is nice to see that you don't approve of smaller guilds. (though I have since stopped raiding with them).

 

Irishloop

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. You'd be surprised how important glyphing can be in so-called "lower-end content."

For instance, my guild was doing 10-man Ulduar last night with Hodir, normal mode. We brought 3 healers. As druids are best designed for raid healing, I assigned first the shaman, then the priest, to heal the MT, both of which failed miserably. Not the first time it's happened.

So, I keep my Glyph of Nourish knowing full well that I might be stuck MT healing at any time, and if so, the value of that glyph changes significantly.

The point being, even at lower-end content, making correct glyphing, gearing, and talent choices can matter quite a bit, especially if you're making up for people with less knowledge and skill.

In my case, if you're going to be doing more MT healing, then I'd say Nourish is the way to go for semi-obvious reasons. If you're only doing 25-mans with reliable Disc Priests and Holy Pallies to heal up those tanks, GoNourish is going to be significantly less powerful and you'd be better of with Rejuvenation.

However, I politely disagree that it doesn't matter what lower-end raiders use. It always matters.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I both agree and disagree. In one sense it does matter as any conscientious raider is going to want to be tuned to their situation. At the same time, however, there's a clear difference between choosing glyphs for normal mode encounters when compared to hard mode.

Basically, optimization in both contexts means entirely different things. Consider your own argument: Because you may need to MT heal sometimes you have glyphed Nourish. Even when you aren't MT healing, you still have Nourish glyphed. By definition you're optimized to be able to switch between roles over the course of a run.

Ezarg's optimization is completely different. The context from which he is speaking requires that players optimize fully for one role, and nothing else. Glyphing Nourish while fulfilling a raid healing role is simply not an option.

So when Ezarg says "it doesn't matter", I don't believe he's implying that one could and should go completely glyphless, but that you can easily make an argument for any of the available glyphs and not be wrong by the simple virtue of the nature of the normal mode encounters.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]