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05/13/09, 6:39 PM
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#166
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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Most of the cases you wrote - Ignis, Kologarn, Mimiron, Constrictor - are much better handled by rejuv+regrowth (+nourish if needed). No one is going to die instantly to a pot or a grip, and after you did your HT, then what? It's the same problem of a non-hotted nourish, the heal isn't strong enough. Note that for most of these cases, SM will be up and can cover most of the needed emergencies.
On Auriaya I can see it as being more useful.
What burst is there on Hodir? I know you're not suggesting to heal frozen blows with HT...
As for the lack of synergy, it's mostly related to HT itself being a pretty weak heal due to not being boosted by the hots/crit talents.
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05/13/09, 8:15 PM
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#167
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Von Kaiser
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I guess it's more of "whatever works for you" thing - I like GHT. I don't understand that whole talk about GCD clipping or whatever. I first ran GHT with only .3sec cast time reduction, which coupled with my haste gave me .997 cast time on it. That turned out to be very annoying because having cast time so close to GCD is what causes you run into "this spell is not ready yet" so often. I put now 5 points into HT cast time reduction so now it's .82 or so (I swapped a couple pieces so I lost a tiny little bit of haste) and it's just fine now - it behaves like an instant cast and if you know how to queue your rejuvenations then it works exact same way.
Edit: about slag pot: are we talking 10 or 25 man version of this? In 10 you can do just anything you like and it's fairly easy to keep people alive through it. It's not the same case with 25-man where it's currently 6000 DTPS for 10 seconds while in it = 60000 / 10 seconds. In 10-man now it's 4500 DTPS = 45000 total. Assuming people are topped off and with 20k+ HP, in 10-man you need to output 2500 HPS while the person is in the pot, while in 25-man you need to output 4000 HPS and there is no way your hots are going to cover it. If you use Rejuv+Regrowth, they will get 2k (RJ) + 6k (RG direct heal) after ~3 seconds, and another 2 ticks of both for some 8k total - so you need to cast one more direct heal spell. In 25-man if you make them wait 3 seconds, they are 18k HP down.
Also, I found Regrowth to be a terrible idea for Slag Pot as in several fights Ignis would put someone in the pot just to immediately start casting Flame Jets so you get nicely silenced while casting your Regrowth and blocked for some more time, just long enough that the person in the pot is going to die. Also, what exactly you need to cast depends highly on how much health those people have going into the pot. Incidentally yesterday he grabbed our offtank while he was walking some adds around - that was fun...
Last edited by Ezarg : 05/13/09 at 8:40 PM.
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05/14/09, 4:46 AM
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#168
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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Originally Posted by Ezarg
Also, I found Regrowth to be a terrible idea for Slag Pot as in several fights Ignis would put someone in the pot just to immediately start casting Flame Jets so you get nicely silenced while casting your Regrowth and blocked for some more time, just long enough that the person in the pot is going to die. Also, what exactly you need to cast depends highly on how much health those people have going into the pot. Incidentally yesterday he grabbed our offtank while he was walking some adds around - that was fun...
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That's why you have more than 1 healer in the raid. I let the other healers that are more suited for it handle the initial hit while I take care of the rest of the damge with hots. For Ignis in particular, druids are better suited to handle raid healing, with the Jets dot and interrupt. But, if someone is slagged and he casts jets afterwards, I focus on them, using rejuv and LB.
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05/14/09, 11:58 AM
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#169
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
That's why you have more than 1 healer in the raid. I let the other healers that are more suited for it handle the initial hit while I take care of the rest of the damge with hots. For Ignis in particular, druids are better suited to handle raid healing, with the Jets dot and interrupt. But, if someone is slagged and he casts jets afterwards, I focus on them, using rejuv and LB.
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So to summarize your argument: glyphed healing touch isn't 'druidy.' It seems to have a 'narrow niche,' but whenever it would be good to use, we just delegate the task to burst healing classes, while us druids stick to what we are good at. That's a valid point of view -- unfortunately Ulduar is all about burst followed by a lull in damage, followed by a burst again. This pattern only gets worse on hard modes. A druid that ignores burst healing risks becoming more and more irrelevant, especially as your guild starts doing hard modes, and optimizing the healing lineup.
To put it more bluntly: holy priests can heal gradual raid damage just as well as we can, but we have a hard time healing burst raid damage without changes to our play style.
Last edited by Rijndael : 05/14/09 at 12:03 PM.
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05/14/09, 12:20 PM
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#170
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Kael'thas
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
So to summarize your argument: glyphed healing touch isn't 'druidy.' It seems to have a 'narrow niche,' but whenever it would be good to use, we just delegate the task to burst healing classes, while us druids stick to what we are good at. That's a valid point of view -- unfortunately Ulduar is all about burst followed by a lull in damage, followed by a burst again. This pattern only gets worse on hard modes. A druid that ignores burst healing risks becoming more and more irrelevant, especially as your guild starts doing hard modes, and optimizing the healing lineup.
To put it more bluntly: holy priests can heal gradual raid damage just as well as we can, but we have a hard time healing burst raid damage without changes to our play style.
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Having rejuv up on 15 people heading into something like flame jets or frozen blows is quite powerful (in addition to wild growth and swiftmend options). Interupting this kind of a "rotation" to GHT someone would just put me behind. The potential EHPS we can reach for these situations is very impressive with our druidy HoTs and I don't think GHT will help the raid overall unless your healer comp isn't diversified. Feel free to check out resto pve healing discussion for further information.
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05/14/09, 12:39 PM
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#171
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Runetotem
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My problem with glyped HT is that everything about it is inferior to a non-hotted nourish. Its HPM is lower, average hit is lower, and mana cost is higher. The only thing that is superior is its whip-crack cast time. My contentions are these:
In most situations where X needs a heal ASAP, nourish will cover the bill. There are relatively few situations where the .2-.3 second cast time difference is enough to mean the difference between a living player and a dead one. When those situations do come up, swiftmend and NS+HT are already baked into our healing style and are enough to handle them. If you're in a position where you feel like you need glyped HT to cope, then I think the problem isn't so much in slow heals but more in that something wrong is going on in your raid. There are no encounters balanced around having sub 1 second cast heals, and all fights can be managed with what we have already. To counter the "we aren't perfect, shit happens" argument, I'd like to point out that there are 1-7 other healers besides yourself, all with their own forms of "save me" buttons. If your raid is dying that quickly and all healers' buttons are on cooldown so often that you need glyphed HT just to make it through, you would probably get better returns by teaching the morons how to raid properly instead of gimping your healing. Glyphed HT is a band-aid fix to copious amounts of bad play in the raid. To counter the "I like it for that once-a-fight situation" argument, I say that that's fine, but I hesitate to justify something as permanent as a major glyph + a different spec for such rare situations.
I'm also wondering why this is being discussed again. Nothing has changed since that 3-4 page debate in PVE discussion thread, and all of the arguments here seem to be rehashing everything that has been said.
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Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)
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05/14/09, 1:49 PM
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#172
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Paininabox
My problem with glyped HT is that everything about it is inferior to a non-hotted nourish. Its HPM is lower, average hit is lower, and mana cost is higher.
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The average hit of glyphed HT is not lower than a non-hotted nourish, not even close. Glyphed HT in my gear hits about as hard as a nourish with 2 hots on target (while casting 33% faster). You can take my word for it, as I actually use it on a daily basis.
In response to 'interrupting the Rejuv rotation,' I agree that you take a hit to raid HPS in order to throw a burst heal. Knowing when this is worth doing is part of good druid play, in my opinion. Here is a parse with a few (unsuccessful) Thorim hard mode tries with me healing arena, to give an idea of my healing breakdown on a fight with a fair bit of burst damage going around:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
In particular, consider the average healing value for nourish vs glyphed healing touch (the values are artificially low in this fight due to the mortal strike mechanic).
Last edited by Rijndael : 05/14/09 at 2:02 PM.
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05/14/09, 2:00 PM
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#173
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Runetotem
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
The average hit of glyphed HT is not lower than a non-hotted nourish, not even close. Glyphed HT in my gear hits about as hard as a nourish with 2 hots on target (while casting 33% faster). You can take my word for it, as I actually use it on a daily basis.
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When you factor in the fact that nourish will have ~45% crit chance and healing touch ~18%, the average nourish will hit harder than the average healing touch. I don't need to use it "on a daily basis" to know that.
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Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)
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05/14/09, 2:07 PM
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#174
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Paininabox
When you factor in the fact that nourish will have ~45% crit chance and healing touch ~18%, the average nourish will hit harder than the average healing touch. I don't need to use it "on a daily basis" to know that.
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I don't think taking expected values is appropriate for dealing with burst healing situations, for the same reasons tanks don't rely on avoidance for dealing with burst, but instead rely on high hp values.
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05/14/09, 2:17 PM
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#175
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Runetotem
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
I don't think taking expected values is appropriate for dealing with burst healing situations, for the same reasons tanks don't rely on avoidance for dealing with burst, but instead rely on high hp values.
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I agree with that, but even granting that, it does not void my argument.
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In particular, consider the average healing value for nourish vs glyphed healing touch (the values are artificially low in this fight due to the mortal strike mechanic).
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Given that you did not use nourish when health deficits were high and would have not overhealed as much and instead used HT when it would have likely been 100% effective, I don't think that is a useful observation. I could just as easily, hypothetically, use nourish as the "save me" heal and healing touch in nourish's old place and point out that nourish didn't overheal as much as healing touch.
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Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)
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05/14/09, 2:32 PM
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#176
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Paininabox
I agree with that, but even granting that, it does not void my argument.
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Ok, let's do a little math.
Let's assume your crit values, 45% for Nourish, and 18% for GHT. We get an average healing value for Nourish of 0.45 * 1.5x + 0.55 * x = 1.225x. We get an average healing value for GHT of 0.18 * 1.5y + 0.82 * y = 1.09y. I claimed non-crit GHT heals for as much as non-crit nourish with 2 hots on target. Glyphed nourish will be boosted by 2 hots by 1.2 * 1.12, so say y =~ 1.344x. Solving, we get that GHT hits for 1.09 * 1.344 x = 1.465 x > 1.225 x.
If we also assume living seed will always be used, we get an additional 0.45 multiplier on crits. Redoing our calculations, we get:
0.45 * 1.95x + 0.55 * x = 1.4275x for Nourish and 0.18 * 1.95y + 0.82 * y = 1.171y for GHT. Solving, we get that GHT hits for 1.171 * 1.344 x = 1.574x > 1.4275x. (This is given a wildly unrealistic assumption of not wasting either the crit value or the living seed).
Nourish gets a 20% casting boost if spammed almost all of the time, which still puts it behind GHT casting time.
This is all assuming expected values, which we both agree is not a good way of estimating burst healing value, since if you do you end up gambling with your raid members' lives too much. A much better way, in my opinion, of estimating burst healing value is to look at the worst case, which is the minimum healing value and worst possible casting time. Since Nourish heavily relies on crit-luck for its HPS, it doesn't do very well in the worst case.
On the other hand, all of these disadvantages of Nourish go away when used on the tank.
edit: fixed calculations to account for the multiplicative nature of the glyph, per correction in subsequent post.
Last edited by Rijndael : 05/14/09 at 5:06 PM.
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05/14/09, 2:41 PM
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#177
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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On the one hand we talk about burst damage hitting the raid. Why should I prefer a HT spec+glyph if I could easily place several hots (RJ/LB/WG) before burst damage starts and dampen it that way? Above all, t8 4-set bonus is that strong, so you won't waste a thought about HT.
On the other hand when healing incoming burst damage on the MT (compare Steelbreaker last), whatever I'm arranged to heal, concerning the MT I keep RJ up (maybe also 1-3 LB) and start RG/Nourish to hit shortly after the MT gets punched, with a great chance on living seed (above 50% for one direct heal).
In my opinion there's nothing better than combining what you are best in, and it's definately not HT that you use in hardmodes.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Rijndael
Glyphed nourish will be boosted by 2 hots by 32%
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It's rather two times 20% plus two times 6% from the Nourish glyph = 52% additional heal!
Last edited by Bhalu : 05/14/09 at 2:47 PM.
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05/14/09, 3:19 PM
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#178
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Bhalu
It's rather two times 20% plus two times 6% from the Nourish glyph = 52% additional heal!
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Where do you get the second 20%? Nourish is only boosted by the first hot by 20% as a basic property of the spell. The Glyph further adds a 6% multiplier for every hot (including the first). Empirical testing suggests there is no second 20% added anywhere. The maximum Nourish bonus is 64% (actually a bit more because of the multiplicative nature of the glyph) which happens with 4 hots on target with the glyph of Nourish and 4 piece tier 7 bonus.
Last edited by Rijndael : 05/14/09 at 5:32 PM.
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05/14/09, 4:15 PM
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#179
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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The glyph bonus is multiplicative so *1.20*1.12 instead of *1.32
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Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
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05/14/09, 5:07 PM
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#180
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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Thank you, that's what happens if a non-calc-guy reads too quickly through tooltips.
Anyway, I stick to the first part above my quote 
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