If you read back through the thread you will find the general consensus to be that the Regrowth and Swiftmend glyphs are givens - the debate coming down to whether or not to take the Lifebloom or Innervate glyphs.
To those that have taken the LB glyph, do you find yourself actually spending additional time out of the 5SR? I know that in theory it gives you additional time, but given the experiences I have had in Naxx (both 10 and 25) I can't think of a time where having 1 extra second on LB would have allowed me any time out of the 5SR. Especially with the incoming WG nerf (which may have us chain-casting individual HoTs on people in 10 mans), it seems even less useful as a mana regen talent. Now that I am not having to innervate myself (as I have geared up) on many fights, it seems like Innervating a priest (while activating the Spirit World Glass) might make the Innervate glyph very useful. Looking for raid experiences of people with the LB glyph and how (if at all) it is effecting mana regen as I have been considering changing glyphs.
One more second on LB is not about spending time OO5SR but rather opening your cycle to allow you to maybe save your tank with Regrowth then not spend 3 GCDs getting back up your Lifebloom stack. I myself do not often Innervate other people because we have 2 Ferals in raid and because I use my mana very liberally since we don't have resto shaman that would ease a lot the raid healing. That plus their mana spring and mana tide.
The fight that made me finally glyph Lifebloom was Sartharion with 3 drakes up. In 25man version, my primary task was to hot up Sartharion tank and the add drake tank. Between dodging Flame Tsunamis, Shadow Fissures and running loose adds hitting me closer to tanks, the additional second actually helped me to maintain stacks running while I regularily was OOR from one tank or another. (Sartharion tanked on the entrance end of the area, adds on the back end or middle, depending on situation.)
In the 10man version, we dealt the responsibilites more like 1 healer per tank (Disc Priest to Sartharion tank, me on the add drake tank, shaman for the third + portals; me + shaman raid healing). And there, with the huge damage spikes the add tank at times took, having the longer cycle also helped greatly.
Seems the HT glyph isn't getting much notice except for a few posts here and there. At the moment it's an improved nourish for me. I did not bother getting natures grace or naturalist with it either.
I didn't do my own math, but rather rely on in-game theory crafting to give me values so it may be inaccurate but it's what I have to work with.
Nourish has a 1.3s cast and heals for about 3733 (not including the extra 20%) - 630mana
HT has a 1.3s cast and heals for about 8500 - 760mana
Anyway you look at it, the glyph has given me a much more amped up version of nourish with a slightly higher mana cost, but nothing too severe.
Currently I'm using HT glyph, innervate, and regrowth. I'm not able to get swiftmend yet and was planning on switching it out for innervate. I'm just curious if I'm missing something about the HT glyph. This thread has been comparing the others but hasn't really given this one much thought.
Even just at a glance I can tell your numbers are way off. Glyphed HT does not heal for 8500 with any attainable amount of spell power. Did you only cast it once, and it crit?
I didn't do my own math, but rather rely on in-game theory crafting to give me values so it may be inaccurate but it's what I have to work with.
Nourish has a 1.3s cast and heals for about 3733 (not including the extra 20%) - 630mana
HT has a 1.3s cast and heals for about 8500 - 760mana
I think your numbers are wrong.
Using Rawr and equipping gear that pushes spell power into the 2300 range (pre-talents, buffs, etc.) Then maximizing all buffs Rawr shows that glyphed HT would average 6520, while Nourish would hit for 5700 (assuming no HoT on the target.)
Rawr could be wrong, but my a quick cross-check on paper says it's accuracy is far better than your 3733 vs. 8500 comparison.
So, the glyph of healing touch gives you a faster, slightly larger heal with less mana efficiency and you sacrifice a NS+HT emergency heal that can make a huge dent in even the biggest mana bar. Some healing styles might prefer that fast heal and be willing to give up the massive NS+HT bomb.
For me, nourish is close enough in speed and healing done and cheaper to cast, and I'm not willing to sacrifice my big heal. Also, no way I'd give up my Regrowth, Lifebloom or Swift Mend glyphs...
But I also don't PvP much, I can see the benefit for PvP...
Cast time makes sense, both are 1.5s base with the HT glyph.
You're right about the numbers though, no way glyph HT heals for 8.5k, doubt it would even crit that high. Also ignoring the 20% extra bonus on nourish is stupid, why would you cast it if there's no hot boosting it? Cast regrowth instead.
Looking over some recent parses my average nourish is around 6.1k and goes up to 6.8k on a tank spam fight ala Patchwerk thanks to 4t7. My HT (no emp. talent or glyph) looks to be around 9.5k. Adding in 20% extra from spellpower and boosting it with 10% (GoN), 4% (MS) and 6% (ToL) would boost it to 10.2k. Not sure that's how emp. talent works so feel free to correct it.
Applying the glyph would make HT 5.1k. So for the cost of 1 glyph slot and 2 talent points you'll get a heal that costs more mana, heals for less but requires less thought.
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
With the proper specc, (14/0/57), its a great glyph, if not our best. It increase your mana/hps efficiency but also allows you to ease your HoT rotations.
Glyph of swiftmend :
Same as the previous one, you increase your mana/hps efficiency by saving mana (not having to rehot the target). It also ease your HoT rotation but even better then that, you just feel like yuo can swiftmend anytime without breaking your "perfect" rotation.
Glyph of innervate :
Usefull on some fights for 10 men Naxx when you're doing it with 2 healers only. It's also usefull when yuo want to give innervate to someone you just rez in a boss fight. Altho it's a glyph I may drop when I get more mana regen.
My opinion on other glyphs :
[Glyph of Rebirth] : not really usefull, yuo can fully heal up someone that you just rez within 3 seconds.
[Glyph of Regrowth] : its been nerf before the expansion came and made that glyph less attractive. I honestly think people spamming regrowth like crazy are missing something about the druid class.
[Glyph of Healing Touch] : Nourish is better. Especially with 4 pieces of T7. Nourish just scale better with gear and even tho some consider HT being better then nourish, I still think its not efficient to use a glyph slot in order to override an already similar spell.
[Glyph of Rejuvenation] : Decent, but what happens if your target never goes under 50%? I dont think you benefits enough from this glyph versus others.
My healing breakdown is fairly distributed between my spells (Wow Web Stats). I have a hard time understanding players that focus on using only 1 or 2 spells. For every situation, there is a different combination of spells that can be use in order be fully efficient. You can still get the job done by using very few spells, but it just won't be as efficient.
I choose my glyphs following those thoughts.
First time writing on those forums, but not the first time reading them. Great place to learn new stuff.
Yeah so the ingame theory crafting isn't accurate because it didn't halve the HT heal amount. It heals for about 4.4k. It's true, I didn't think about the loss of NS+HT.
Nourish just seems to be a little lackluster until you get the 4t7.
I wrote a little simulation program to calculate which is better. Glyphed Regrowth spammed on the tank or nourish assuming a hot is active. Here are my results with two resto druid toons.
This asusmes you are using the regrowth glyph and that regrowth is already active on the target and that if regrowth crits the next regrowth will cast .5 shorter, same with nourish. Also, the t7 tests assume that all 3 hots are active on the tank.
Not only can you see that crit greatly improves Regrowth spam (along with haste), but in both cases regrowth healed for about 500 hps more along with costing about 10 mps less.
My next post will examine looking at certain rotations like If i cast nourish and only cast regrowth if nature's grace is active. But overall from this simulation program you can see that regrowth is definitely superior to nourish assuming NO t7 bonus. However, with a high crit rating, nourish becomes a little bit better than regrowth, but this requires all 3 hots to be already active on the tank.
Last edited by turlockmike : 12/23/08 at 7:06 AM.
Reason: changed title
You should change the post title to "Why nourish is useless for spamming tanks", because that is all your findings prove. Nourish is far from useless, it simply has better uses elswhere.
When people do their theorycrafting with regrowth, why are they never considering the regrowths HoT ticks?
If you spam regrowth, the HoT won't tick. If you use nourish, it will tick roughly every 2 nourish. Why not adding it?
My regrowth HoT ticks for a little bit more then 1000. Isnt 333+ HPS right there? With or without 4 pieces of T7.
While regrowth is a very powerfull spell, I think spamming it, even on a tank, is not the solution. The art of healing as a resto is subtle and lies in foreseeing the incoming damages.
With the upcoming nerf to wild growth, views on healing touch spec?
At level 70 I was keeping up with a fully geared sunwell resto druid in my silly old tier 6.
The difference was: He was Wild growth/HoT spec (Wg/Genesis/Natures' Splendor/GOTEM. Not quite sure what he glyphed. Rejuvenation, regrowth and ?) and I was HT Spec, picking up Natures Grace, Naturalist and Empowered Touch. Glyphed Healing Touch, Rejuvenation and Regrowth. I kept up to him in heals considering our gear difference by a whole tier .5 (Yes, it mattered, that fight was long :|!) He ate about 7 innervates vs. my 3. Usually hes pretty mana efficient. ANYWAYS, At the end I ended up out on third, trailing behind the tree on second and my favourite shammy on first. EDIT: Adding in the fact that I was running back and forth with a warlock summoning people, and trailing by about less then 100k. Does that make my healing more efficient? Adding Nourish into the equation at 80 now should help even more. Riight?!
Somebody want to confirm the HT vs. HoT spec/glyphing for me?
EDIT: The fight was Killed in Quel'thalas (Silvermoon 80 raid boss at 70.)
With the upcoming nerf to wild growth, views on healing touch spec?
At level 70 I was keeping up with a fully geared sunwell resto druid in my silly old tier 6.
The difference was: He was Wild growth/HoT spec (Wg/Genesis/Natures' Splendor/GOTEM. Not quite sure what he glyphed. Rejuvenation, regrowth and ?) and I was HT Spec, picking up Natures Grace, Naturalist and Empowered Touch. Glyphed Healing Touch, Rejuvenation and Regrowth. I kept up to him in heals considering our gear difference by a whole tier .5 (Yes, it mattered, that fight was long :|!) He ate about 7 innervates vs. my 3. Usually hes pretty mana efficient. ANYWAYS, At the end I ended up out on third, trailing behind the tree on second and my favourite shammy on first. EDIT: Adding in the fact that I was running back and forth with a warlock summoning people, and trailing by about less then 100k. Does that make my healing more efficient? Adding Nourish into the equation at 80 now should help even more. Riight?!
Somebody want to confirm the HT vs. HoT spec/glyphing for me?
EDIT: The fight was Killed in Quel'thalas (Silvermoon 80 raid boss at 70.)
Healing meters are stupid because the people boasting rarely indicate their overhealing numbers. At this content level a HT spec is not worthwhile. You'd get more mileage out of some haste gear (which builds naturally from 25-man loot) plus Celestial Focus - Spell - World of Warcraft and Nourish if you need a fast heal. Regrowth (glyphed) right now with ~ 70% crit rating is just way too good. Then you take Nature's Grace - Spell - World of Warcraft into consideration and it's not even close. My Regrowths are nearly as fast as your specc'd Healing Touch (with NG up) is and it heals for much, much more. In 25-man raids, my higher crit Regrowths are ~ 9000. Actually, I really don't use Nourish either. On our last 3-drakes Sartharion kill, I didn't use Healing Touch or Nourish at all and I was MT healing with one other person. All I really did was roll Lifebloom x3, keep Rejuvination up and used Regrowth as my main healing spell.
I donno. I just think Healing Touch builds are lame.
When people do their theorycrafting with regrowth, why are they never considering the regrowths HoT ticks?
If you spam regrowth, the HoT won't tick. If you use nourish, it will tick roughly every 2 nourish. Why not adding it?
My regrowth HoT ticks for a little bit more then 1000. Isnt 333+ HPS right there? With or without 4 pieces of T7.
While regrowth is a very powerfull spell, I think spamming it, even on a tank, is not the solution. The art of healing as a resto is subtle and lies in foreseeing the incoming damages.
This is an excellent point I haven't thought of in favor of Nourish on tanks. If you add the Regrowth ticks to Nourish it seems to come out ahead of Regrowth, as long as the tank has full HOTs and you have the 4 piece T7 bonus. There is another point against Nourish however -- if Regrowth crits, it shaves 0.5 seconds off the next cast. If you cast Nourish with that cast, you will become GCD limited (since the cast will go off in 1.0 sec - haste%). So it seems the algorithm you want to follow on the tank is (modulo big spikes, where you behavior changes):
(1) Keep the Lifebloom 3-stack and Rejuvenation up.
(2) If previous Regrowth crit (more generally if Nature's Grace is up), or Regrowth HOT is about to run out, cast Regrowth again
(3) If previous Regrowth did not crit (more generally if Nature's Grace is not up), cast Nourish
This is an excellent point I haven't thought of in favor of Nourish on tanks. If you add the Regrowth ticks to Nourish it seems to come out ahead of Regrowth, as long as the tank has full HOTs and you have the 4 piece T7 bonus. There is another point against Nourish however -- if Regrowth crits, it shaves 0.5 seconds off the next cast. If you cast Nourish with that cast, you will become GCD limited (since the cast will go off in 1.0 sec - haste%). So it seems the algorithm you want to follow on the tank is (modulo big spikes, where you behavior changes):
(1) Keep the Lifebloom 3-stack and Rejuvenation up.
(2) If previous Regrowth crit (more generally if Nature's Grace is up), or Regrowth HOT is about to run out, cast Regrowth again
(3) If previous Regrowth did not crit (more generally if Nature's Grace is not up), cast Nourish
Thoughts?
You wrapped up the logic of my algorythm pretty well. Altho mine is a little bit different since I consider other people's healing in it. Let me explain my logic then my algorythm, if you may.
To start with, I dont care too much about mana efficiency. Even tho I am trying to maximize it 100% of the time, I know I can force my mana use with no problems. The only time I may have issues are Naxx 10 men with 2 healers, even there, only Sapphiron is giving me troubles. Even Malygos 10 men is easy on the mana when you know when to use innervate and your mana potion.
About my role in a raid. Let's put the 5 men aside, they are too easy to be an issue of any kind. Usually my role is raid healing with keeping all hots on the tank. A pally or a priest will land big heals on a tank and I count on them to do so. However, since hots are always on a tank, I am always always ready to use swiftmend followed by nourish or regrowth (depending on the time left on the regrowth).
To give you an example of my healing, here is the breakdown of my healing for a Malygos kill (Wow Web Stats). Here is the breafdown for the tank (Wow Web Stats). As you can see, healing is well split between people according to their role.
My role is to keep a regular amount of heals on the tank with some help with the burst damage while my partners are landing stronger heals with a higher chance of overhealing.
As for my algorythm for the tanks, it would be something like that (please take note its completely different for other classes/role in the raid):
(1) Always have rejuvenation and lifebloom up. One lifebloom is enough to start with. Rejuvenation is crucial to make sure swiftmend will is the rejuvenation power and not the regrowth one.
(2a) When some kind of burst damage occurs, regrowth is usually the answer. You have a good change of crit (which will fasten your next spell) and its landing a very good amount of healing on the target.
(2b) Depending on the burst or the situation (are other people also taking a lot of damage, what stage of the fight are you on, etc.) NS+Healing Touch may be the answer or...
(2c) ... swiftmend can also be the answer. Those last 2 spells are not always available, so it's a question of judgement. The logic remains the same tho, burst = big heals has to land. Preferably regrowth...
(3) ... for 2 reasons. Preparing a stronger AND faster nourish. Even tho a faster nourish waste a bit of your GCD, who cares? It still a great heal landing in 0.7 - 0.8 second. Even if the real casting time is 1 second, it's still faster then a 1.2 - 1.3 regrowth.
(4) Since lot's could have happen in the last 3 seconds, there is a tons of possibilities. Land an other big heal on the tank (nourish, swiftmend, NS+HT). Renew Hots (to know when to renew hots, I am using grid with a timer color system so I know when to do it, I put a link at the end). I even sometimes let lifebloom goes for the burst healing it can gives. I may put myself between the tanks and the range and cast WG on myself in order to hit everyone up. Possibilities are endless.
That's the fun part with druids, our possibilities are endless, we're not stuck like many other classes to few spells. It's a mix between all of our spells that make us strong.
P.S. Sorry for the bad english, french being my first langage.
Another modification to this idea of modifying the spell you cast on the Nature's Grace proc is to cast Healing Touch (yes, Healing Touch) instead of Nourish.
As you can see, you sacrifice Living Seed and 2 points in GotEM, in exchange for a fully powered Healing Touch. As the Resto4Life calculations show (Resto4Life� Blog Archive � Direct Healing in Wrath), Healing Touch is actually excellent HPS and HPM. The only problem is, at 2.5 seconds it's a little too slow. If you only cast it after a Nature's Grace proc, it speeds up to 2.0 seconds - haste%, which is the cast time of Regrowth.
You wouldn't always cast Healing Touch on a Nature's Grace proc -- there are tradeoffs. Regrowth is faster, and leaves a HOT, Healing Touch is a more powerful heal and has better efficiency. Good druids can probably adapt these pretty quickly to the pattern of incoming damage.
The question is, is having an efficient heal that's quick enough to cast after a proc useful enough to drop Living Seed and some points in GotEM? In my experience Living Seed is marginal on most fights, but occasionally helps tremendously. It's value goes up the more you use Regrowth. Since this build will substitute Healing Touch for about half of former Regrowth casts, the value of Living Seed is cut by about half (a little less since Healing Touch can also crit). Dropping points in GotEM raises the haste cap which is bad short term, but good long term.
Anyways this is probably a tangent for this thread, which is about Glyphs after all. Perhaps some enterprising someone could make a resto spell discussion thread?
Back to glyphs. =P As with gyph of curse of agony, which lengthens the time of the dot but no additional damage. Does the lifebloom glyph work in the same way? Like 1 extra tick but total 10 weaker ticks or is it 1 extra tick of your unglyphed lifebloom. and same thing goes for the talent nature's splendor more ticks less healing per tick or more ticks same healing? thx in advance.
The Lifebloom glyph and Nature's Splendor both add on additional ticks of the same value. You aren't losing any healing by using them. Also, please capitalize your posts appropriately (refer to the forum rules for details).
I've been looking through some parses from fights recently and I noticed I tend to get pretty high healing numbers out of glyph of rejuvenation. It seems to be staying quite confortably between 3% and 4% for most "difficult" fights when the raid is not overhealed.
--
On topic of regrowth. I don't find regrowth to be to my liking on tank healing (apart from keeping the hot up). Giving up swiftmend, lifebloom or rejuvenation glyph just to get a heal which is slightly better than nourish (for some situations) does not seem worth the hassle. Nourish is reliable, it's pretty decent HPS and it's a fast cast. It's a bit expensive (especially untalented) but consider how small a fraction of casts will actually be nourish in a typical fight it really doesn't matter all that much.
When you are in a hurry, Nourish will cast 25% faster (33% faster with living seed).
This said, if I did have regrowth glyph equipped I would probably choose regrowth over nourish for some tank healing situations. It just doesn't seem like worth the cost to equip the glyph instead of others for my healing style.
The fight that made me finally glyph Lifebloom was Sartharion with 3 drakes up.
Have to agree 100% with this. On S+3/25 I run 5xLB stacks with plenty of time for raid healing or tank healing as well as not letting many drop (refreshing based off of priority). On S+3/10 I would run 3xLB stacks (Sarth Tank, Drake Tank, Add Tank) and main heal both Drake/Add Tanks mostly with hots and Raid Heal with Rejuv's/Regrowths/WG. Having the extra second from the Glyph plus the two extra from Nature's Splendor make a druid on both fights indispensable.
Originally Posted by Myrskytuuli
Disc Priest to Sartharion tank, me on the add drake tank, shaman for the third + portals; me + shaman raid healing)
I'd actually love to see a WWS parse of this fight. We ran 3 tanks and 2 healers since the DPS boost from trading a Healer for a DPS really pushed us over the hump getting Tenebron down then lusting through Shadron. I'd be interested to see the timing of things in your fight to compare to see if there is something we weren't doing right with 3 tanks+3 healers.
Anywho, I run Regrowth, Innervate, and Lifebloom. I'm seriously considering replacing Innervate with Swiftmend but I do like the ability to toss out an innervate in a 25man, pop my World Glass and still have some decent regen w/o having to be oofsr.
Alternatively, you can choose not to waste 5 points on the horrid Tranquil Spirit, get Living Seed and GotEM, and still use HT if you want.
Living Seed is pretty much useless. On a S+3/10 kill I had 33 hits yielding ~80k worth of healing over 9.5minutes. Its "ok" at best but reducing the mana cost of HT is a better alternative for your points imo if you are capable of using longer heals. Now, the 2 points in Empowered Touch over GotEM is not a good choice at all. Considering LB should be a huge amount of your healing on a regular basis the ability to stack/refresh lb's, rejuvs faster and get more Lb stacks into your rotation is far better than bigger HT's.
12/22/08, 7:41 AM
Similar Threads
