Well if history is any indication, they will just make the t9 bonus a straight healing % boost, and give it better itemization.

Judging that T7 affected Nourish, T9 will likely affect Wild Growth. Give it more range to jump or more power. Which would make the glyph that much more viable.

I have never personally seen WG not hit 6 targets. I count frequently. It can hit pets so either that's happening or you need to use it better. The throughput granted by the glyph blows the other glyphs out of the water. The many ways to use WG have been heavily discussed in the Resto PvE thread.

I've perused my WWS parses of fights and checked out the healing by Glyph of Rejuv. It was lackluster for me so I dropped it.

edit: Might as well repurpose this post for something else.

I want to report some experiments and theorycrafting I did on 3 glyphs: 2 of them popular and 1 unpopular. My conclusions are somewhat contrary to accepted druid wisdom, so I am soliciting holes poked in my analysis.

The glyphs I am going to look at are Swiftmend, Regrowth, and Healing Touch. (My original motivation was to pick a third glyph to go with Nourish and Wild Growth. These two glyphs seem extremely strong -- even if occasionally Wild Growth does not hit 6 targets, and even if Nourish overheals the tank a lot in practice. Glyph of Rejuvenation may be situationally useful, but I am not going to talk about it here, except to say that it is only useful on a handful of fights given our guild's raid healing makeup).



The Swiftmend glyph causes Swiftmend to not consume the hot. The Swiftmend wording states that it heals for as much as 12 seconds of Rejuvenation or 18 seconds of Regrowth would have healed with my gear. If not glyphed, Swiftmend tries to pick a hot with the least duration left to consume. To be generous, let's assume on average Swiftmend eats half of a hot's duration, which is 9 seconds of Rejuv or 13.5 seconds of Regrowth. Thus, even if the hot the glyph did not consume would have done 0% overhealing, the amount of healing you should expect to see from this glyph is upper bounded by the amount of healing done by Swiftmend itself (this assumes Swiftmend itself has low overheal itself, which is true in practice for most druids given the way Swiftmend is typically used). In fact, in reality the amount of healing saved by Swiftmend will be very low indeed since most hot healing overheals.

In practice, even with heavy use, I rarely see Swiftmend account for more than 3% of healing per night, so the healing savings of the glyph will almost certainly not exceed 1% in practice. The saving grace of the Swiftmend glyph is that it provides you burst healing without sacrificing the hot "cushion" on tanks, which saves you time from having to reapply. I will admit that occasionally (very occasionally) this extra GCD saved will save a tank from death (I have never seen a single hot tick save a tank yet in Ulduar, but I am sure it can happen).

Conclusions on Swiftmend: very weak returns on healing. May save the tank from death in rare cases. Overrated glyph, in my opinion.



The Regrowth glyph boosts both the direct healing and the hot portion of Regrowth by 20% if the target already had Regrowth. The analysis of this glyph has to start with how Regrowth is used. Before 3.1, Regrowth saw use as both a tank healing spell and a raid healing spell. With 3.1, Nourish took over as a 'spam the tank' spell, and Rejuvenation/Wild Growth are used more frequently on the raid. I tend to reapply Regrowth on every tank taking damage (for boosting Nourish, and extra 'cushion'), for people who need a heal with subsequent damage (Ignis slag pot, Kologarn arm crush, Yogg constrictor tentacles, etc.), and on the raid during moderate continuing damage where the direct heal won't go to waste (Mimiron phase 2).

I ran some WWSes comparing my Regrowth healing done with and without the glyph. The surprising conclusion is that average effective healing boost (to the hot tick and to the direct heal value) from the glyph was closer to 10%, rather than 20%. My explanation is that for most targets I will not cast a Regrowth twice in rapid succession to get the 20% bonus, but will let the first Regrowth tick until it is almost out, and then reapply. What this means is that some proportion of my Regrowths will not be boosted by the glyph. For my healing style this proportion seems to be about half -- the only targets where I will reliably reapply will be tanks, on the raid there's rarely a need to cast Regrowth more than once on the same target until the hot runs out.

There is an additional problem with this glyph -- in order to make use of this bonus, you need to clip the hot. As any affliction warlock will tell you, clipping dots is inefficient and reduces your dps. The reason for this is that clipping will reset the tick timer, which means you will head 'dead time' where the hot/dot skipped a tick. Since Regrowth ticks every 3 seconds, the dead time will equal 3+epsilon to 6 seconds (epsilon is a small number). In practice for most druids the dead time will be a lot closer to 6 seconds, since they will not risk letting the hot run out before reapplying. Talented Regrowth ticks 27/3 = 9 times. If we can reliably clip only the last tick, we will lose 1 tick out of 9, and introduce about 6 seconds dead time before ticking resumes. This is about equivalent to dropping every 9th tick from an infinite 3 second ticking hot, which is equivalent to 1 - 8/9 =~ 11% loss of HPS on the hot. In practice, druids will often reapply with multiple ticks still left.

Regrowth tends to account for 12-18% of my healing per night. This means the glyph isn't accounting for more than 2% of my healing given the way I use Regrowth, and is likely a lot less due to clipping issues above.

Conclusions on Regrowth: weak returns on healing, encourages inefficient use of the spell which negates most advantages of the glyph (due to clipping, needing a Regrowth hot already). Boosts a situational spell. Not a great glyph.



The glyph of Healing Touch shaves 1.5 seconds off Healing Touch cast time, removes 25% of the mana cost and halves the total heal value (after all bonuses).

This is the spec I used to evaluate this glyph: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

I took all healing touch talents at the expense of Celestial Focus (I have enough haste) and Revitalize (still seems like a weak talent to me). I did not take Tranquil Spirit because 5 points for a 10% mana savings on spells which don't even account for 30% of my mana spent is very weak returns per talent point.

With my gear, the glyph turns healing touch into a spell which casts is a little under 0.9 seconds and heals for about as much as a Nourish with 2 hots on target. By comparison, Nourish casts in about 1.4 seconds. If you only need to cast once (e.g. GCD clipping isn't an issue) glyphed Healing Touch matches the HPS of Nourish with full hots. Since the glyph doesn't improve existing spells but instead introduces effectively a new spell, I cannot evaluate it by looking at boosted healing or throughput. Instead, I need to look at the 'tactical value' of the new spell, compared to the loss of HT+NS.

The tactical value of glyphed Healing Touch is that it is an unconditional, no cooldown, fast raid heal with decent healing amount -- something that druids don't usually have. Swiftmend is extremely fast, and heals for a lot, but requires a hot, and has a longish cooldown. Nourish without a hot is reasonably fast, has no cooldown, but is a very weak heal. Nourish with lots of hots is reasonably fast, has no cooldown, heals for a good amount, but has hefty preconditions to be used (in practice can only use on tanks). Nourish with a SINGLE hot is reasonably fast, has no cooldowns, gains most of the healing boost from the first hot, but does have a precondition which frequently fails to hold for a target that's low. Regrowth is a weakish direct heal, has no cooldown or preconditions, but is rather slow for responding to some Ulduar spikes in my experience. Glyphed healing touch is very fast, has no cooldown, heals for a good amount (more than Nourish + 1 hot), and can be reused regardless of the state of the hots on the raid.

Like most druids, I don't spam direct healing spells. I tend to blanket the raid with hots, use wild growth, roll hots on the tanks, etc. When I was evaluating this glyph, I tended to use glyphed Healing Touch like I would use Swiftmend. The only difference is, the spell hits for less and is a bit slower. Because it is so fast, it tends to have very low overheal, and so surprisingly ends up being one of the most efficient spells I cast, despite its seemingly high mana cost. Since it has no cooldown, I can be a lot more aggressive with it (although obviously it's not meant to be spammed).

Glyphing healing touch loses NS+HT. This is a hit, without a question, since this WILL occasionally save a tank from death (it certainly has for me, and I am sure most druids).

Conclusions on Healing Touch: despite its reputation as a "nub glyph," I found the glyph to be viable and even competitive for the third slot. You weaken your tank-saving cooldown (NS+Regrowth is less awesome, obviously), in exchange for gaining a fast, no cooldown, no pre-condition way to respond to spikes -- addressing the main druid weakness.

All they have to do is increase mana cost on rejuvenation the way they did with lifebloom, give us some other cookie in exchange and they can put just about any bonus they want on T9 to make 4T8 less desirable.

Or they could make the T9 bonus read: "Your wild growth will not affect pets anymore."

WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Glyph of Innervate: Has been adjusted to grant the Druid 90% of his or her base mana pool over 20 seconds.

Druid base mana pool is 3496 (lvl 80), 3496 * 0,9 = 3146,4 Mana over 20sec?!?
This can not be correct?


vs. no glyph:

Innervate: This ability has been redesigned to grant 450% of the casting Druid’s base mana pool to the target over 20 seconds
3496 * 450% = 15732 mana over 20 sec.



Or is it 15732 + 3146,4 = 18878,4 over 20 sec if druid cast on him/herself and he has the glyph ?

I guess it works like the current Glyph of Innervate:

Cast on yourself:
you get 450% + 90%

Cast on someone else:
you get 90%, someone else get 450%

Problems with HT glyph is:
1. HT itself has very little synergy with deep resto tree talents.
2. If you're spamming the raid, you run into GCD clipping issues. Nourish with its decent crit rate has a high NG uptime in spam situations, so it is pretty compatitive on cast-time with glyphed HT.
3. If it's for spot-healing, then rejuv/SM is nearly as fast, heals for a lot more and leaves the hot on (this, by the way, is a common situation in which the SM glyph is really nice). This is especially good with 4t8.
Yes SM won't always be up, but I think the niche here is too narrow to warrant a glyph. I'd say that besides the WG glyph which I consider mandatory the others are a matter of personal taste and they don't really make or break.

I agree with u 100% about the glyph of healing touch. I also experimented with it and fully specced into HT and all the cast time reductions and bonuses, i had a 1.2 sec HT and when natures grace ( the old and better version of natural perfection) precced the cast went down to .7 sec cast that crit for between 9-10k. Whats the problem there u say?....... how bout being fully specced into GotEM with all haste buffs and 350 haste, your global CD is still only at 1 sec ( which is the lowest achievable time u can get) so yes u have a fast cast time but all it does is waste mana and leavs u sitting for .3 sec doing nothing every time u crit. The glyphs i currently use are Glyph of Swift Mend ( crucial ), glyph of rejuve, and glyph of Wild growth. I do like the glyph of nourish but if that spell is what u base your rotation on, u will never make it through the longer fights with enough mana for last, and most of the time more dmg heavy, portions of the fight. So with that said after paying 200G for the glyph of nourish i dumped it 2 days later for the glyph of rejuve, which doesnt do all that much but still comes through when u need it to.

I however disagree with most ppl ive saw writing about the 4 set T8 bonus bc rejuve is usually between 60-70% of my healz and there for the bonus will be extremley viable for my healing style. Using rejuve and WG as my 2 primary spells allows for 3k+ HPS on almost every boss fight and a consistant 2.4k+ overall HPS throughout a raid, about 400-500 hps higher than using a more heavy regiment of regrowth, nourish, and WG in a 3 spell rotation ( which i used to swear by till a guildie druid took me to school and improved my healing by 50% at least). I know some ppl still use glyph of innervate ( which in my opinion is useless bc i for 1 never have time to sit with myself selected for 20 sec. not healing to get the extra bonus mana regen) and regrowth ( which i hardly ever use except for the extra hot on the tank), so there is my reason for not using those glyphs in case u were wondering. Any comments or opposing opinions are welcom and looked forward to. thx for reading

Guess your making it through Vezax Hardmode, Nourish is a great tool. With 3.1 it got 25% additional crit chance from the Nature's Bounty talent making the fixed Living Seed talent even better. You might abort Nourish as direkt healing spell and save some mana, inalienable to succeed. It's almost the same with other hardmodes in Ulduar.

Perhaps you should read what the innervate glyph actually does and not just dismiss it because you don't understand how it works. When you cast it on someone else you'll have full spirit regen for the duration so it doesn't matter if you stop casting or not you will still gain extra mana.

Uliko, in case you are talking to me, better read what i have quoted.
It was about the Nourish glyph that I still prefer instead of the RJ glyph.
Have you ever used Innervate while fighting against Vezax in hardmode?

I was just saying that there are too many other useful glyphs to rely on the glyph of innervate, and my quote was aimed at the fact that the patch took most of the usefulness of the glyph away. It merely increases the mana regen slightly and isnt worth using, but thats just my opinion.

1. I don't understand what you mean by synergy. If you mean that HT isn't improved by deep resto talents enough, then that's true, but HT is improved enough by early/mid talents to be competitive with nourish without lots of HOTs on target. If you mean that HT doesn't interact with our HOTs then that's also true, but that's what makes glyphed HT a strong spell -- it doesn't require a HOT precondition.

2. It's true that glyphed HT has GCD clipping issues, but so does swiftmend (it's instant!), and no one complains about swiftmend. Speed is good, even if you clip the GCD. Even with clipped GCD, glyphed HT handily beats Nourish without hots on it.

3. Rejuv+Swiftmend is not a viable general answer to burst spot healing for what I hope are obvious reasons.

Since you think that burst raid healing is a narrow niche, here's a list of fights where having something more than swiftmend is useful:

Razorscale (burst damage only on raid), Ignis (if you are doing slag pot), Kologarn (arms), Cat lady (feral defender destroying clothies), Mimiron (napalm), Thorim arena (squishy aggro seems common), Yogg (constrictors). Note that what all these fights have in common is that you can't just get by with Swiftmend, and you can't always rely on hots being present on target (and you often can't waste time putting them up either).

Just about the only fights in Ulduar where burst isn't a useful option to have on the raid is Iron Council and Hodir (and Hodir does have burst, it's just that it's a more efficient use of our GCDs to spread hots on Hodir, rather than snipe). I mean I understand that burst healing isn't our strength, and holy priests are much better at it, but that doesn't mean it's bad to have burst healing options (just like holy priests have a hot option in renew, which they do use). And burst healing isn't a 'narrow niche' it's practically all that other healing classes do.

Most of the cases you wrote - Ignis, Kologarn, Mimiron, Constrictor - are much better handled by rejuv+regrowth (+nourish if needed). No one is going to die instantly to a pot or a grip, and after you did your HT, then what? It's the same problem of a non-hotted nourish, the heal isn't strong enough. Note that for most of these cases, SM will be up and can cover most of the needed emergencies.
On Auriaya I can see it as being more useful.
What burst is there on Hodir? I know you're not suggesting to heal frozen blows with HT...

As for the lack of synergy, it's mostly related to HT itself being a pretty weak heal due to not being boosted by the hots/crit talents.

I guess it's more of "whatever works for you" thing - I like GHT. I don't understand that whole talk about GCD clipping or whatever. I first ran GHT with only .3sec cast time reduction, which coupled with my haste gave me .997 cast time on it. That turned out to be very annoying because having cast time so close to GCD is what causes you run into "this spell is not ready yet" so often. I put now 5 points into HT cast time reduction so now it's .82 or so (I swapped a couple pieces so I lost a tiny little bit of haste) and it's just fine now - it behaves like an instant cast and if you know how to queue your rejuvenations then it works exact same way.

Edit: about slag pot: are we talking 10 or 25 man version of this? In 10 you can do just anything you like and it's fairly easy to keep people alive through it. It's not the same case with 25-man where it's currently 6000 DTPS for 10 seconds while in it = 60000 / 10 seconds. In 10-man now it's 4500 DTPS = 45000 total. Assuming people are topped off and with 20k+ HP, in 10-man you need to output 2500 HPS while the person is in the pot, while in 25-man you need to output 4000 HPS and there is no way your hots are going to cover it. If you use Rejuv+Regrowth, they will get 2k (RJ) + 6k (RG direct heal) after ~3 seconds, and another 2 ticks of both for some 8k total - so you need to cast one more direct heal spell. In 25-man if you make them wait 3 seconds, they are 18k HP down.

Also, I found Regrowth to be a terrible idea for Slag Pot as in several fights Ignis would put someone in the pot just to immediately start casting Flame Jets so you get nicely silenced while casting your Regrowth and blocked for some more time, just long enough that the person in the pot is going to die. Also, what exactly you need to cast depends highly on how much health those people have going into the pot. Incidentally yesterday he grabbed our offtank while he was walking some adds around - that was fun...

That's why you have more than 1 healer in the raid. I let the other healers that are more suited for it handle the initial hit while I take care of the rest of the damge with hots. For Ignis in particular, druids are better suited to handle raid healing, with the Jets dot and interrupt. But, if someone is slagged and he casts jets afterwards, I focus on them, using rejuv and LB.

Having rejuv up on 15 people heading into something like flame jets or frozen blows is quite powerful (in addition to wild growth and swiftmend options). Interupting this kind of a "rotation" to GHT someone would just put me behind. The potential EHPS we can reach for these situations is very impressive with our druidy HoTs and I don't think GHT will help the raid overall unless your healer comp isn't diversified. Feel free to check out resto pve healing discussion for further information.

My problem with glyped HT is that everything about it is inferior to a non-hotted nourish. Its HPM is lower, average hit is lower, and mana cost is higher. The only thing that is superior is its whip-crack cast time. My contentions are these:

In most situations where X needs a heal ASAP, nourish will cover the bill. There are relatively few situations where the .2-.3 second cast time difference is enough to mean the difference between a living player and a dead one. When those situations do come up, swiftmend and NS+HT are already baked into our healing style and are enough to handle them. If you're in a position where you feel like you need glyped HT to cope, then I think the problem isn't so much in slow heals but more in that something wrong is going on in your raid. There are no encounters balanced around having sub 1 second cast heals, and all fights can be managed with what we have already. To counter the "we aren't perfect, shit happens" argument, I'd like to point out that there are 1-7 other healers besides yourself, all with their own forms of "save me" buttons. If your raid is dying that quickly and all healers' buttons are on cooldown so often that you need glyphed HT just to make it through, you would probably get better returns by teaching the morons how to raid properly instead of gimping your healing. Glyphed HT is a band-aid fix to copious amounts of bad play in the raid. To counter the "I like it for that once-a-fight situation" argument, I say that that's fine, but I hesitate to justify something as permanent as a major glyph + a different spec for such rare situations.

I'm also wondering why this is being discussed again. Nothing has changed since that 3-4 page debate in PVE discussion thread, and all of the arguments here seem to be rehashing everything that has been said.

The average hit of glyphed HT is not lower than a non-hotted nourish, not even close. Glyphed HT in my gear hits about as hard as a nourish with 2 hots on target (while casting 33% faster). You can take my word for it, as I actually use it on a daily basis.

In response to 'interrupting the Rejuv rotation,' I agree that you take a hit to raid HPS in order to throw a burst heal. Knowing when this is worth doing is part of good druid play, in my opinion. Here is a parse with a few (unsuccessful) Thorim hard mode tries with me healing arena, to give an idea of my healing breakdown on a fight with a fair bit of burst damage going around:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

In particular, consider the average healing value for nourish vs glyphed healing touch (the values are artificially low in this fight due to the mortal strike mechanic).

When you factor in the fact that nourish will have ~45% crit chance and healing touch ~18%, the average nourish will hit harder than the average healing touch. I don't need to use it "on a daily basis" to know that.

I don't think taking expected values is appropriate for dealing with burst healing situations, for the same reasons tanks don't rely on avoidance for dealing with burst, but instead rely on high hp values.

I agree with that, but even granting that, it does not void my argument.

Given that you did not use nourish when health deficits were high and would have not overhealed as much and instead used HT when it would have likely been 100% effective, I don't think that is a useful observation. I could just as easily, hypothetically, use nourish as the "save me" heal and healing touch in nourish's old place and point out that nourish didn't overheal as much as healing touch.