I was thinking, on PTR Blizz fixed the Rogue weapon swap mod without nerfing rogues dps (much). Could they do that with WE and how?

I think I found an answer IF they only want to stop the WE mod but leave the dps increase it gave intact.

1. Keep the "You can't activate the opposite eclipse debuff" currently on PTR but lower time to ~13 sec (or maybe 13 for SF eclipse and 14 for Wrath ones)
2. Make the two eclipse buffs able to be up at the same time

So item 1 would block item 2 EXCEPT when there less time on eclipse than it would take to cast another spell under eclipse. Allowing the last spellcast of X eclipse to proc the other eclipse. IOW Back to back eclipses. The result of this would basically be a WE effect for everyone all the time. Mod killed, dps remains roughly the same as it is now

Edit lol, got home and was reading earlier posts and saw someone had the same idea i had only a few hrs earlier. So much for posting a new idea.

This would on the surface appear to be a good counter-balance. However, we will be stuck in a cycle of Blizzard nerfing the old tier set and buffing the new tier set so moonkins will make the switch without the feeling of working backward. To compensate for lose of 2t8, t9 might be OP like 2t8 was.

As a general rule of thumb a bonus set provides about a 3%-3.5% increase for classes (give or take). While significant over non-bonus sets, the difference isn't too harsh for players still working on their sets. A player working on their bonus set could still do dps possibly in line with same class players with their bonus set assuming a 3% margin of error with procs and fight mechanics. A lot of players aren't getting their sets quickly and providing a 6%-7% more of a dps increase just would make players have the new raid requiement of "do they have their set bonus yet?".

Increasing bonus set damage seems like a simple easy band-aid fix, but I believe in the long term it would cause moonkins or any other class problems with going outside of the 3% increase to bonus sets.

I believe Blizzard isn't going to offset kins via itemization but adjust our casting mechanics. While this might change how we gear either with a higher haste cap or what not, it addresses the underlining problem with moonkin dps and not crutch it to a gear set. I also don't believe that Blizzard is going to view moonkins as some exception and give us higher bonus dmg with bonus sets. I view 2t8 as a outliner that wasn't properly considered when Blizzard was making adjustments to our rotation. Possibly they did consider it and didn't want to nerf a set that kins were currently running dungeons and saving emblems for. One can only guess...

My conclusion is I don't believe higher itemization to be a solid solution and I am hoping Blizzard considers a WE effect-type change or other casting mechanic to help kins scale appropriately with content.

How about this instead.

Eclipse: 3 talent points.
When you cast Wrath, you have a (7/14/20)% chance of causing a Lunar Eclipse which increases the critical strike chance of your Starfire by 30% for 15 seconds. When you cast Starfire, you have a (11/22/33)% chance of causing a Solar Eclipse, which increaes the damage of your Wrath by 30%. Each time you fail to produce an Eclipse, you gain an equal chance of producing an Eclipse, stacking up to 2 times. Stacks cannot occur while under the effects of Eclipse. Both Eclipses have a 30 second cooldown and cannot occur simultaneously.

I don't know how better else to word that but I'll explain the mechanic I envision in full.

Basically, the first time you cast Wrath or Starfire, you will have a 20% or a 33% chance of producing an Eclipse, regardless of a critical strike or not. If you don't produce an Eclipse, you gain an additional 20% or 33% chance. If you don't proc Eclipse on the 2nd cast again again, you'll gain another, for a total of 60% or 100% on the 3rd cast.

Obviously, Blizzard won't like this very much. It eliminates the fact that Eclipse revolves around our critical strikes. However, in exchange for that, the chance to get a proc is reduced until you cast 3 spells. This makes things much better for Wrath but a little worse for Starfire, so there is a trade off. However, it does make our rotation far more reliable and eliminates some of the randomness while still providing us with a fun, interesting, and infinitely more dynamic rotation than we had without Eclipse.

P.S. The inspiration for this spell came from the Fire Mage ability that caused Fire Mages to gain critical strike chances every time they failed to get a critical strike, and when the got it the buff was consumed. For the life of me, I can't find what that talent/ability was so maybe it's been removed since then though...

You're thinking of the old Combustion (pre 3.2 I think).

Thanks, I knew I wasn't crazy...

Also, here's a couple interesting numbers that I did for this change...

Current Wrath Proc Chances, assuming 55% crit when raid buffed:

Cast Wrath Starfire

1st 33.00% 55%

2nd 55.11% 79.75%

3rd 69.92% 90.89%

4th 79.85% 95.90%

5th 86.50% 98.15%

6th 90.95% 99.17%

Those reflect the chance that you will get a crit and that it will proc an eclipse. Notice that even after 6 casts, you will only have a 90% chance of getting a Lunar Eclipse proc. That's surprisingly low, even to me. 55% chance to crit with Wrath is also a very high number, and I doubt that many Moonkins have even achieved that. I believe I'm just barely at that mark raid buffed. Also, notice how quickly Starfire ramps up in chance. After 3 casts, you have over a 90% chance of producing an Eclipse.

Now here's the chance with the suggested change.

Cast Wrath Starfire

1st 20.00% 33.33%

2nd 52.00% 77.77%

3rd 80.80% 100%

4th 92.32% 100%

5th 96.93% 100%

6th 98.77% 100%

I just want to point out one threshold: the 2nd cast. At that point, in both instances, the chance to proc an Eclipse by the 2nd cast is almost identical. After that point, the suggested change I made really starts to ramp up. For Wrath, you're chance increases by 28% in my suggestion between the 2nd and 3rd cast, versus only 14% in the current mechanic. In Starfire's case, it's a 100% chance, which was intentional on my end. At that point, if you haven't gotten a Solar Proc, your DPS has really plummeted because you're now casting Starfire every ~2.5 seconds.

I probably did too much work on this for some simple suggestion, but I haven't heard many other ideas to be honest.

I think Build-a-Talent might be venturing dangerously close to WoW forum territory. Also, I'm not sure why there's all this sudden talk about Eclipse, which isn't going see any big change until Cataclysm.


The problem with Eclipse is more subtle than people are always making it out to be. Lots of classes have RNG all over the place in their mechanics. I can think of two significant things that make Eclipse different:
1) It only happens a few times a fight. Most heavily RNG-based mechanics (say Missile Barrage) are "attempted" every few seconds, so the total variance over the course of a fight is small. I know of no way to make this point without invoking the Central limit theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , but we can validly expect to have a higher variance in expected DPS output due to less frequent trials of an important RNG roll. This effect will actually be lessened in 3.3 when we're back to trying to proc it twice as often.
2) Interruptions work heavily against us. Interruptions during Eclipse downtime delay the next Eclipse, leaving mean Eclipse uptime during actual casting constant. But interruptions during Eclipse uptime result fully in lost uptime. So it's a lose/lose situation--interruptions during Eclipse count against us, but interruptions outside Eclipse fail to counteract them, because they don't reduce the total time we have to spend proccing Eclipse.*

I think (2) might be more significant. Eclipse in its current form admits little to no ability to use any of skill or judgment to ameliorate the effect of interruptions. Ordinarily a good player with some short-term buff mechanics at his disposal and a good knowledge of a boss fight that lets him predict interruptions to some degree should be able to plan his ability use to manage the situation in some fashion. But we have none, so not only are we hit unfairly by casting interruptions in the average case, but there's no way to improve the situation with attentive play.


*To make this slightly more mathematical: say we ordinarily have average Eclipse uptime E, but are only able to cast with frequency x. The normal cycle had Eclipse uptime E and eclipse downtime (1-E). But with cast time deflated to x, the Eclipse uptime is still E, with only Ex of that spent casting, and the Eclipse downtime is (1-E)/x, with only (1-E) of that spent casting. The preceding sentence contains the important point--Eclipse uptime gross (including interruptions) is the same in both cases, but Eclipse downtime net (excluding interruptions) is the same--heavily favoring the downtime in this interaction.

Our new average Eclipse uptime out of time spent casting will be new ratio of Eclipse time to total time (both excluding interruptions):
,
which is less than the E is was without interruptions. For example, where E = .75 and x = .8 (75% nominal Eclipse uptime and 80% casting frequency), Eclipse uptime will be reduced to 70.6%.

Arawethion,

That tells us that Moonkin now hate interrupts even more than we did in BC. It doesn't say very much about how compare to other classes in an interrupt-heavy environment.

I ran the latest released simc (t9, optimal raid, 2.2).

DPS Ranking:
422913 100.0% Raid
13th 10033 2.4% Druid_T9_58_00_13_2T8_2T9
16th 9922 2.3% Druid_T9_58_00_13

I then re-ran with a 4s stun, about every 30s: raid_events=stun,cooldown=30,duration=4

DPS Ranking:
370003 100.0% Raid
26th 8396 2.3% Druid_T9_58_00_13_2T8_2T9
28th 8315 2.2% Druid_T9_58_00_13

The average raid member lost about 12.5% of his DPS to the stuns. Moonkin lost about 16.3% of their DPS, taking roughly a 1/3 bigger penalty than the average raider. Eclipse downtime increased from about 17% to 22%.

Not surprisingly, DK's, Ferals and Rogues weathered short stuns relatively well. They lose auto attacks, but they continue energy/power regeneration.

Considering only mana users, the top Moonkin went from 9th to 14th, being passed by a Ret, 2 Ele specs, and a 53/0/18 DG Warlock.

A 16/0/55 DK lost only about 5% of his DPS, and climbed from 21st place, to 1st.

Unfortunately, this is one of the areas where simulator and actual combat diverge as a good player will anticipate the stun (especially if it's on a fixed timer) and may opt to refresh DoTs earlier or swap nukes to prevent Eclipse from proccing seconds before the stun. By working the stun-timer into your spell-selection, you can reduce the DPS-loss it causes.

But part of the point I was making above is that we have very little ability to play around interruptions. Refreshing DoTs is a good one, since the most common type of interruption is movement. But only a small percentage of our DPS is from DoTs; the great majority is from nukes and the Eclipse cycle. And the most common kind of movement is relatively randomly scattered--dodging randomly targeted abilities of some kind. Most DoT refreshes during that movement are heavily clipped, so while you're making some use of that time, it's minimal. Only when the interruption is somewhat regular and timed such that it's close to an integral number of DoT durations is the benefit of this large.

This is does shade into something else which I do think helps separate good players--moving during DoT refreshes at a time when you have a choice of when to move. This actually happens pretty often, and after playing the spec for months I do it instinctively. But, due to the low percentage DoTs represent in our total DPS, the actual benefit of this kind of management is quite small.

Swapping nukes to avoid proccing an Eclipse is of limited use. It's better than in the 3.1 rotation, where there was no way to avoid proccing a nuke during the post-Eclipse phase, so at least we have the option. But 1) it only works on perfectly predictable interruptions, which is often not the case when it comes to movement, and 2) it recovers the lost Eclipse uptime in a pretty unappealing way--by sacrificing Eclipse uptime by avoiding proccing it. I won't do the math right now on how far out it might be worth it to wait, but it will still be the case a good player can't maintain average Eclipse uptime equal to what it is when uninterrupted. The key point I was making above will remain: we feel a double whammy from interruptions because we lose both total cast time and relative Eclipse uptime.

Careful spell use can mitigate the problems, but our options really aren't that good. Relative DPS numbers might be roughly (napkin math, 87% NG uptime, 80% Eclipse uptime, ignoring FoN and Starfall):

Cast: DPS (time spent on a PW fight)

"Normal" nuke: 100 (2%)
NG nuke: 120 (15%)
Eclipse nuke: 130 (9%)
NG+Eclipse nuke: 160 (62%)
Full-duration DoT: 170 (11%)
Clipped DoT: 20 to 160 (0%)

Average DPS: 151

We only have two casting options that are above average: A full duration DoT, or a nuke with both NG and Eclipse. We have to maximize our use of those options.

Even a short interruption (or movement) gives us a much higher chance of losing NG, casting clipped DoT's, and wasting, or delaying Eclipse time. Any "special" preparation you take in advance of a stun will itself be significantly below PW average.

I have been wondering if it will be worth our time to occasionally use gift of the wild to proc omen of clarity when we have 2T10.

It seems like it will be useful at least as a third instant to cast while moving, but does it have any other place in our rotation?

It might also give you an incentive to stand in melee range. A 2s mace or dagger should have an 11% or 12% chance to proc OOC. It will have a chance to connect anytime you cast <instant>+<IS>, and also during movement or some interrupts.

It is plausible that melee range could be attractive for Owlkin Frenzy procs also. OF is huge when you can get it. The problem in current raid content is that you almost never get it.

I really hope isn't that benefical. As I see myself in a ToGC25 fight on Gormok within melee range, then the RL asks "What the hell are you doing taking extra damage being in melee range?" and hearing the raid laugh for trying to be the new melee class when I say "trying to proc OF and OCC". [/exaggeration]

Or are you suggesting while moving out of the fires/whatever melee the boss on the move type thing? Where such a benefit would be more a situational type thing and not standard practice? Just going back to the post about not wanting to wasting one GDC for trying to proc for 6 seconds but how during movement it would be great.

Not saying it isn't a good idea but trying to wrap my head around how such an idea would work in maximizing dps.

How decent is this trinket for us?

Nevermelting Ice Crystal - Items - Sigrie

I've been stuck with sundial forever and this should be pretty easy to get, but the use doesn't seem all that great with the 3 minute cooldown.

I have been thinking about the wrath and haste issue.

Currently heroism/bloodlust do nothing during a solar eclipse but it seems blizzard wants us to cycle wrath and starfire.

One very easy change would be to change tier 1 tallent starlight wrath. Currently it reduces the cast time of wrath by .1 sec per point for .5 second total reduction wich works out to be what 25% haste? or is it 30% i was never a math person.

If blizzard changed this tallent so it increased the damage done by wrath or the crit chance of wrath by 20-25% the tallent dps increase would be lower but in reality by increasing the haste cap by alot our total dps should increase. We would also be able to use a haste proc trinket any time we want rather then timing it with lunar cycle and heroism/bloodlust would give us a real increase for our entire rotation not just the lunar part.

This would affect Moonkin PvP. This is why they can't (won't) bump Wrath's cast time.

Nice buff. Looks like a typical person who switches from 2T8/2T9 to 4T9 on patch day can expect a small DPS increase, even with the loss of WiseEclipse. Here's a sheet with the new value.

It's confirmed by blue post:

Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator)

* Eclipse now increases damage done by Wrath by 40% (up from 30%) and the critical chance of Starfire by 40% (up from 30%)

I'm in 2 minds about this, but at the end of the day it was the simplest change they could make I expect and doesn't dramatically change any Moonkin habits that I can see.

It moves the non-2T8 crit cap down a little to a point where given the inevitable increase in stats both the soft haste and soft crit caps may be attainable. Will do some napkin maths later on (not entirely sure that I have the correct numbers when I posted about the crit cap for moonkin)

Will these changes affect the way we weigh stats towards each other? I often use the numbers from the Beginner Moonkin Guide (haste 0,9, crit 1,1, SP 1,4 etc) when deciding one item over the other, but when we are so close to a soft crit cap, it may change the value of crit.

If this is the case, then i would assume the rundown of it would be "get your haste to 400, then get your crit to xx%. After that, stats are worth.."

I am not sure at which point this would take place, and how the stats would be balanced hereafter. Tier 10 4 piece is heavely affected by crit, after all, but any increase in crit won't affect starfires during lunar eclipse much more than it already does.

If you weren't at the soft crit cap in 2PT8 in 3.2 then you won't be at the soft crit cap in 3.3.

If I am correct the soft crit cap in 3.3 is at approximately 38%. This is without raid buffs, in Moonkin form. Focus Magic brings this down to about 35%. Beyond this it is conceivable that Haste will again be slightly more valuable than Critical Strike rating. At this point though both will still benefit jus tnot as much as before.

It assumes that when buffed you will have 5% from Improved Scorch / Improved Shadowbolt / Winters Chill (have heard some mages talking of trying out a frost DPS spec so this may make an appearance, who knows). It also assumes 3% from Totem of Wrath / Heart of the Crusader / Master Poisoner

Is there someone with a more precise grasp of the numbers hiding that can pad out the above with something more precise?

I have the 3.2 numbers here : Strayegg.com - Moonkin critical strike rating
Will update for 3.3 shortly, need to do some checking because I'm not 100% convinced that they are entirely accurate still.

From the TTT:

"Crit Chance, before Intellect and crit rating: 5% (Moonkin Form) + 5% (Improved Scorch) 3% (Totem of Wrath) + 3% (Improved Faerie Fire) = 16%. Adding in 4% (Nature's Majesty), 3% (Improved Insect Swarm) and 10% (Improved Moonfire) gives 20% for Wrath, 23% for Starfire, and 26% for Moonfire, added to whatever you see reported in your character sheet when out of form."

Since we're only really talking about starfire, I'll use 23%.

Let's use Qieth as an example since he has really high crit rating.

At 915 crit rating he is at 28.76% out of form.

In 3.2 with 2T8 that means:
28.76% + 23% + 15% + 30% = 96.76% chance to crit with starfire during eclipse.

In 3.3 with 2T8 that means:
28.76 + 23% + 7% + 40 = 98.76% chance to crit with starfire during eclipse.

Obviously he will not be using the 2T8 for long, which should put him further from the cap (haven't checked the difference here, but going to assume it will not cover the 7% loss).