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Old 12/05/09, 8:12 AM   #2551
Librarybook
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by feior View Post
We all seem to be excited about the extra crit we're getting in the next patch for lunar eclipse... I hope none of us forgot that we still need to use that upcoming golf-swing timer that someone is obviously trying to put together at the moment. Can Moonkins golf? Only the next patch will tell.

Unless I missed some important patch notes about how blizzard is trying to remove a need for such an addon.
I understand the concept of trying to time our cast instead of using wiseeclipse, however from what i see with the change to eclipse, this wouldn't necessarily work. Either you are casting within lunar eclipse, or you're casting out of it. From 15 secs after your first eclipse starts, you cannot proc the next eclipse.. so how can timing our cast at just the right time still get the benefit of lunar eclipse to proc solar? I really don't think it can. I would happily be proven wrong with field testing though.

If i'mright, then actually waiting to cast a spell would be a dps loss and a headache.

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Old 12/05/09, 3:19 PM   #2552
feior
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Librarybook View Post
I understand the concept of trying to time our cast instead of using wiseeclipse, however from what i see with the change to eclipse, this wouldn't necessarily work. Either you are casting within lunar eclipse, or you're casting out of it. From 15 secs after your first eclipse starts, you cannot proc the next eclipse.. so how can timing our cast at just the right time still get the benefit of lunar eclipse to proc solar? I really don't think it can. I would happily be proven wrong with field testing though.

If i'mright, then actually waiting to cast a spell would be a dps loss and a headache.
You have to understand how WiseEclipse works. WiseEclipse exploits the fact that there is server lag, and that the damage modifiers are calculated client side (like crit).

The concept of timing in 3.3 is this (supposing you had 100ms roundtrip client-server lag and 11% haste [2.7027 sec Starfire casts] and no NG [this makes the example easier]):

00.00: lunar eclipse starts
00.00 - 10.81: spam starfire x4
10.81 - 12.19: wait - don't cast a spell
12.19 - 12.29: you cast starfire somewhere in this range of time
14.90 - 15.00: you send a message to server saying you finished casting with your current buffs (including your lunar eclipse proc)
15.00 - 15.10: you receive message containing your starfire damage (crit or regular hit). if it's a crit (which is more likely due to the fact that you casted starfire during lunar eclipse) then you proc solar eclipse

The above example is what we're trying to exploit here. Notice that we don't get the message of "crit or hit" immediately. By the time the client (you) receives the message, lunar eclipse had already finish proccing and is ready for solar eclipse.

I believe this is the guts of it, if I'm wrong please state so.

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Old 12/05/09, 3:51 PM   #2553
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Yes, the concept is identical to WiseEclipse. And it's pretty easy to convincingly verify to yourself that it works on live. I'm actually hoping that it doesn't work the same way on PTR--I just found out about the API changes related to Eclipse (see SquawkAndAwe thread), and that gives me some minor hunch that maybe the behavior is sufficiently changed to avoid this. I still have to get onto the PTR and try again now that the WE-breaking change is on there.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 12/06/09, 10:32 AM   #2554
Zifrelm
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Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Blade
Oy, I'm hoping we don't have to time our last SF like that. Because if it can be done, I'm pretty sure I'll be trying to do it, but it really does not sound fun.

Checked out the SAA thread after what Arawethion just said... That looks kinda grim. Should we be worried about it?

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Old 12/06/09, 5:54 PM   #2555
feior
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Zifrelm View Post
Oy, I'm hoping we don't have to time our last SF like that. Because if it can be done, I'm pretty sure I'll be trying to do it, but it really does not sound fun.

Checked out the SAA thread after what Arawethion just said... That looks kinda grim. Should we be worried about it?
In the SAA thread, I think what's going on is that the Eclipse buff is changing. Unfortunately the change seems like it's going to break SAA as well. I think Arawethion is saying he hopes that whatever changes to the buff occur will avoid the need for "golf-timing".

Generally, the "golf-timing" exploit is not a very good gaming mechanic (and is completely not intended but also completely available at the moment) and will hopefully be fixed. Yes this means I'm hoping that they will nerf/fix us in hopes that blizzard will boost our dps in (without the need for this exploit). However, from what I hear, the +10% to eclipse and the +2% to t10 4pc seems to blizzard's plan to boost our dps in favor of the exploit/t8 problem.

I suppose the direct opposite analogy to this problem is any unintended difficult-to-perform bug that nerfs our DPS. Except in this case, it's an unintended difficult-to-perform bug that boosts our DPS.

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Old 12/07/09, 3:05 AM   #2556
nzoq
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by Zifrelm View Post
Checked out the SAA thread after what Arawethion just said... That looks kinda grim. Should we be worried about it?
My understanding of the changes that have been made is that WiseEclipse or Golfing are irrelevant in 3.3 due to the "no-eclipse" window that's been added. What I think has happened to SAA is that an artifact of the change caused the Eclipse proc message to disappear from the combat log. If this isn't fixed by the time it goes live, I'd expect it to be fixed in the first minor update -- there's no evidence that this functionality was crippled intentionally. I am going to try setting up ForteXorcist as a replacement, if needed.

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Old 12/07/09, 5:07 AM   #2557
feior
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Elune
Originally Posted by nzoq View Post
My understanding of the changes that have been made is that WiseEclipse or Golfing are irrelevant in 3.3 due to the "no-eclipse" window that's been added. What I think has happened to SAA is that an artifact of the change caused the Eclipse proc message to disappear from the combat log. If this isn't fixed by the time it goes live, I'd expect it to be fixed in the first minor update -- there's no evidence that this functionality was crippled intentionally. I am going to try setting up ForteXorcist as a replacement, if needed.
Maybe my mind feels like a broken record, but haven't I already just explained some of this 2 responses ago? If the "no-eclipse-window" you're referring to is the "15-secoond-of-no-eclipse", then that in itself does not fix the "golfing" issue. In fact, "golfing" is a technique that is in response to the "no-eclipse" window. Golfing is also simply a small subset of what WiseEclipse is doing right now in 3.2 (notice the word subset, so blizzard has managed to limit the technique employed by WE). Please read 2 responses ago to see what the golfing technique is.

The topic of the SAA breakage is that it seems Blizzard is changing the buff-type of Eclipse. The actual purpose is unknown at the moment, but there's speculation that it might be to resolve the "golfing" issue (to eliminate it completely instead of leaving a lingering WE artifact).

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Old 12/07/09, 7:25 AM   #2558
qae
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
Using previous numbers (and adjusted to account for the last changes)
2T8: 250
2T9: 360
4T9: 210
2T10: 230
4T10: 375

Dropping 2T8.226 for 2T9.245: 40 DPS lost from set bonuses, 120 DPS gained from stats (going up 1.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> +80 DPS

Dropping 4T9.245 for 2T10.251: 20 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS gained from stats (going up 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> +60 DPS, and probably more due to the superior itemization of the T10

Dropping 4T9.258 for 2T10.251: 20 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS lost from stats (going down 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> -20 DPS, need to check more exactly at some point, since the superior itemization of the T10 set might close the gap. And I don't think a lot of Moonkins will have 4 pieces of T9.258 considering we wouldn't want it before 3.3.. And even then only for a very short time.

Dropping 2T9.258 for 4T10.251: 15 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS lost from stats (going down 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> -25 DPS. At this point you should use the T9 chest and head piece and the itemization will be on par with the T10 set, so it will probably not be worth it.


Just wanted to point out the imminent gear changes facing us with the 3.3

(I mostly used numbers and methods provided previously by Arawethion)

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Old 12/07/09, 8:01 AM   #2559
copialinex
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Minahonda (EU)
Originally Posted by feior View Post
"15-secoond-of-no-eclipse", then that in itself does not fix the "golfing" issue. In fact, "golfing" is a technique that is in response to the "no-eclipse" window.
I made the 'Golfing' addon, and it doesn't work in 3.3. The 15s of no Eclipse are, in fact, some time between 15.117 and 15.168, preventing from taking advantage of latency and proper timing.

To calculate this time, I made this code launch on SPELL_CAST_START
local _,_,_,_,_,endTime = UnitCastingInfo("player")
if endTime and expirationTimeEclipse then
print((endTime/1000)-expirationTimeEclipse)
end
and tried to proc the Solar with my golfing addon. I procced the earliest Solar at 0.168s after Eclipse's end and at 0.117s after the Eclipse's end I made the latest SF crit which didn't proc Solar.

Last edited by copialinex : 12/10/09 at 7:18 PM.

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Old 12/07/09, 1:25 PM   #2560
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Okay, good to know. This is what I was hoping was going on when we saw the change that was discussed in the S&A thread, although it's stlll unclear exactly what the mechanical underpinnings are. Did they just make the invisible Eclipse-blocking buff 15.1 seconds (which is roughly what I suggested they should do), or some more complex fix where the effective extra time somehow varies with lag. Either way, it seems we can probably stop worrying about this, which is good.

Still probably unintended that combat events don't fire; maybe I'll make a post about that.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 12/07/09, 4:23 PM   #2561
feior
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Sorry I'm not too well versed in the blizzard lua code. I suppose if I knew what the code was saying, we might be able to see if Blizzard really pushed the eclipse timer a few hundred milliseconds after 15 seconds, or if those numbers are based on your lag. As Arawethion has suggested, it might be the case that blizzard has implemented an eclipse timer based off of your lag or something even more.

Regardless, it's good to see that I don't have to "golf" in 3.3, I haven't been practicing

If it's a 15.1 eclipse timer, then I suppose blizzard is going to have to watch out for those on satellite internet (> 1 second lag there).

Last edited by feior : 12/07/09 at 4:28 PM. Reason: Misunderstanding

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Old 12/07/09, 5:25 PM   #2562
copialinex
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Minahonda (EU)
Originally Posted by feior View Post
Sorry I'm not too well versed in the blizzard lua code. I suppose if I knew what the code was saying, we might be able to see if Blizzard really pushed the eclipse timer a few hundred milliseconds after 15 seconds, or if those numbers are based on your lag. As Arawethion has suggested, it might be the case that blizzard has implemented an eclipse timer based off of your lag or something even more.

Regardless, it's good to see that I don't have to "golf" in 3.3, I haven't been practicing

If it's a 15.1 eclipse timer, then I suppose blizzard is going to have to watch out for those on satellite internet (> 1 second lag there).
I understand the time UnitCastingInfo and UnitBuff return are server-based, so it doesn't matter the lattency.

Last edited by copialinex : 12/07/09 at 5:26 PM. Reason: Grammar

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Old 12/07/09, 9:11 PM   #2563
jesklash
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Thunderhorn
I see that the buff (To make up for the ridiculous nerf) eclipse was getting did not make the final patch notes, does this mean it didn't make the cut?

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Old 12/07/09, 10:25 PM   #2564
Royalite
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Night Elf Druid
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by jesklash View Post
I see that the buff (To make up for the ridiculous nerf) eclipse was getting did not make the final patch notes, does this mean it didn't make the cut?
Word on the street is that it is coming just some times the last minute things don't get added to the patch notes.
But since it is word on the street...take it as you will.
Source:World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Eclipse not buffed?

Also it has been reported in the SAA thread that Squawk and Awe is broken.
For raiding moonkin's looking for a band-aid alternative for any possible raiding Tuesday or until SAA is fixed, there is:
Class timer
Sexy Cooldowns
Elkano's Buffbar
Tested and verified as working on the PRT for your tracking needs.

Courtesy of Restokin
Source:The new 3.3 Eclipse bug | Restokin

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Old 12/07/09, 10:58 PM   #2565
lissanna
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
The Eclipse buff should be going through, it will just be one of those changes that got put in too late to make the patch notes. The patch notes are really long, and sometimes changes don't make the notes but still make it to the live server.

Also, there is a second addon that goes with Class timer, that adds the cooldown component. It's called Class Timer Eclipse.

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Old 12/07/09, 11:19 PM   #2566
djnoj
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dethecus
Anyone know if ForteXorcist works on PTR?

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Old 12/08/09, 8:42 AM   #2567
Fonzey
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Executus (EU)
It is in the patchnotes:

Originally Posted by MMO-Champion Front Page
Eclipse: This effect will not activate again within 15 seconds of either type of Eclipse effect firing, in addition to the existing 30-second cooldown for each type of Eclipse. In addition, Eclipse now grants a 40% critical strike chance to Starfire and 40% increased damage to Wrath, up from 30%.

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Old 12/08/09, 1:03 PM   #2568
Librarybook
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by feior View Post
You have to understand how WiseEclipse works. WiseEclipse exploits the fact that there is server lag, and that the damage modifiers are calculated client side (like crit).

Sorry I'm not too well versed in the blizzard lua code.
You don't have to understand blizzard's lua code to recognize that they put an internal timer on eclipse server side that trumps the proc to eliminate wiseeclipse.. which would also making golfing impossible as well. Its you that didn't understand, but thanks for several smart ass replies to people.

Last edited by Librarybook : 12/08/09 at 1:44 PM.

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Old 12/08/09, 4:16 PM   #2569
feior
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Elune
Originally Posted by Librarybook View Post
You don't have to understand blizzard's lua code to recognize that they put an internal timer on eclipse server side that trumps the proc to eliminate wiseeclipse.. which would also making golfing impossible as well. Its you that didn't understand, but thanks for several smart ass replies to people.
"Sorry I'm not too well versed in the blizzard lua code."

I apologize if I made myself out to seem like an ass, but that was not my intention. This was aimed copialinex because I didn't understand what that piece of code meant. He also responded with a meaningful answer (if you had not read that yet). However, I'm still not sure how to decipher his recent answer with the code. I'll have to look it up.

Anyways, I thought the effects of a wrath/starfire cast were based on the local eclipse buff - hence my assumption of using the local buff. As well, the example I posted up took advantage of the fact that the spell casts were using the locally held buff. I was pretty sure WE took advantage of this and that there was lag.

You seem to suggest that it's pretty obvious that the wrath/starfire casts are based on the server eclipse, and I apologize for not recognizing it. In any case, could you please place a link so I can assure myself of the same detail?

"You have to understand how WiseEclipse works. WiseEclipse exploits the fact that there is server lag, and that the damage modifiers are calculated client side (like crit)."

If someone claims you don't understand something, it doesn't imply someone is being an ass to you. If you felt someone is just making smart ass responses then please report to a moderator - there is a rule about not back-seat moderating.

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Old 12/08/09, 4:42 PM   #2570
copialinex
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Minahonda (EU)
The code I posted above has nothing to do with WoW's internal code. As you can see through my posts, I like to provide the tools I use to find some infomation.
Refering to the code, It only prints by screen the time in seconds between the end of Eclipse and the end of your cast (this time is server's, not client's). By firing this code when you begin casting a Spell, you can determine the accuracy of your timing, and if you crit, you can determine the lenght of the No-Eclipse-15s (As Arawethion said earlier, if it was exactly 15s, you could time your casts to have a WE effect) by watching the Solar Eclipse procs, althought several tests are required.

Last edited by copialinex : 12/08/09 at 5:59 PM. Reason: Misunderstanding

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Old 12/08/09, 5:12 PM   #2571
feior
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Thanks copialinex for explaining to us and verifying that the eclipse timer is > 15 seconds. The time is suggested to be 15.1 seconds. Perhaps a good test would be to force yourself to have some massive lag (say half a second) by running some monster bittorrent in the background and see if you can still pull off a WE styled (or "golfing" i guess) starfire.

Last edited by feior : 12/08/09 at 7:49 PM. Reason: Response to Misunderstanding

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Old 12/08/09, 11:32 PM   #2572
Lymited
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Worgen Druid
 
Turalyon
Eclipse buff to starfire

I have looked everywhere, and can't find if anyone has addressed it yet, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone but I was going through Arawethion's awesome Moonkin guide in his signature, and I was just wondering if it has been updated to address the crit buff to starfire. Since we have 10% more to reach the lunar cap, I was wondering if it's crossed anyone else's mind about our soft cap being lowered by 459 (45.9 to 1%, so 10%).

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Old 12/09/09, 1:49 AM   #2573
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Lymited View Post
I have looked everywhere, and can't find if anyone has addressed it yet, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone but I was going through Arawethion's awesome Moonkin guide in his signature, and I was just wondering if it has been updated to address the crit buff to starfire. Since we have 10% more to reach the lunar cap, I was wondering if it's crossed anyone else's mind about our soft cap being lowered by 459 (45.9 to 1%, so 10%).
The 2T8 was nerfed from 15% to 7% crit during Lunar. The figures in the guide are accurate.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 12/09/09, 2:42 AM   #2574
Lymited
Glass Joe
 
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Worgen Druid
 
Turalyon
Ok thanks, was just curious because the talent template from mmo listed in the thread still has the old eclipse, so I wasn't sure if the entire thread was updated yet since the new eclipse was a kinda last minute change. Thanks for being on your game with the thread, very thorough

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Old 12/09/09, 8:16 AM   #2575
Phasmy
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Windrunner
Another side effect to the fix to Eclipse is that it is no longer reported in the combat log and no longer shows up in parses online such as WMO or WOL.

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