Moonkin Raiding - Page 103

twiz · 06/17/09, 4:18 AM

Hi guys,

I know it's a little off topic, but I was wondering, that Rawr 2.2.6 rates Furious/Deadly Idol of Steadfastness higher than the Idol of the Shooting Star or Idol of Renewal. Can anyone confirm this?

Latas · 06/17/09, 4:23 AM

For areas with lots of hurricane spam I've found that using Gift of the Wild glyphed right before you want to hurricane in 25 mans will almost always give you a clearcasting proc since its getting 25 trys to proc and they didn't reduce the chance on that. Utilized in the right situation given enough time its a very ghetto way to force a clearcasting to cast that initial hurricane.

Eilt · 06/17/09, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Altiris

Mana efficiency has nothing to do with cast time. Efficiency is straight up DPM; if you can't keep yourself from casting until you are OOM and need to rely on GCD clipping, then it is you who are inefficient.

Using DPM may have been a bad choice, but I assure you everything else in the post was valid. I appreciate your valuable insight though!

The point I was trying to make is that at 3 wrath casts vs 2 SFs the numbers I am getting for average damage are leaning towards SF. Once you factor in the partial SF cast into the equation it appears wrath is more efficient for conserving mana.

We just did this on our 10 man last night and using the same strat I started the animus with 70% of my mana while keeping up damage with the other ranged so that when the animus would spawn Vezax was around 11-15%.

Arawethion, appreciate the numbers, but is there a flaw in the ones I have posted? I took the actual numbers (obviously these numbers are different depending on gear) I am seeing and still feel that wrath is more mana efficient for me at this point.

• Hamlet · 06/17/09, 10:03 AM

Well, like he said, it's not clear exactly what you were doing when you were talking about cast times and efficiency. But I have a Wrath average of 5318 without IS/Eclipse/Crash, and a Starfire average of 9967. Starfire costs 508, Wrath costs 349. I'm not sure where you got the damage estimates of 8400/13000 from, but they favor Wrath too much.

Eilt · 06/17/09, 11:34 AM

It was a number I found after we completed a portion of our attempts. Here is the complete 18 attempts and normal kill.

Vezax Report

Wrath drops to average hit of 8,173 and average crit of 16,716, with a 49% crit rate. Starfire average hit is 11,893 with average crit of 25,723 and 36% chance to crit.

These numbers do include IS/Eclipse/Crash since they are part of the encounter

Weighting averages that adds up to 12,359 average Wrath and 13,630 average Starfire. With these spells averaging damage so close and wrath being so much cheaper I still seem to want to proc a solar eclipse and use a wrath filler. What is it that I am missing?

P.S. Thanks for dealing with my poor math skills and apologies ahead of time if I am missing something blatant...

• Hamlet · 06/17/09, 11:46 AM

If you're using weighted averages from real attempts, they're including Eclipsed Wraths, which makes them incorrect for determining what filler spell to use.

Eilt · 06/17/09, 1:55 PM

Ah yes, so accurately modeling that seems rather complex, it appears that uptime on Eclipse was around ~6% for all attempts that night. So for ~233 seconds of the possible ~3,811 Wrath was doing 30% more damage than normal.

So if we are calling wrath a 1 second cast this means 233 of the 732 (~31%) [Note**: This also assumes that every second of Eclipse was made use of which is very doubtful, in reality even less percentage would have been eclipsed] total wraths cast did 30% more damage. If average wrath is worth 12,359 31% of the time and 8,651 69% of the time the new average wrath is going to be worth ~9,800 damage.

So we would have to compare 9,800 damage for 349 mana to 13,630 damage for 508 mana.

Wrath - 28.0802
Starfire - 26.8307

Again, I am sure I am missing something or doing something wrong, just trying to work it out and figure out where I am going wrong to reach these numbers, thanks for your patience.

**More on the Note:
The two balance out around 25-26% of your casts being eclipsed, so I would have had to cast less than 190 Wraths in that 233 seconds for the two values to be similar.

• Hamlet · 06/17/09, 2:29 PM

13.6k seems really low for an average SF at Vezax. Were you casting out of Crash? As I said above, my normal average non-Eclipsed SF is 10k, so it should be closer to 20k at Vezax.

Regardless, I don't see the point of this exercise. It's very easy to compute the average damage of a single Wrath or Starfire cast without having to resort to empirics.

Eilt · 06/17/09, 3:42 PM

It does seem low, but no I would not have the mana to cast anything outside of crash, although due latency I am sure a few casts had the mana charged after the crash buff faded.

I suppose you are right on it supposed to be easy, but I like to double check the anticipated results with the numbers I get reported from the logs and at a quick glance and run through I seemed to be better off with wrath. Next time I will use a Starfire filler and get a larger sample size of Starfire casts to properly decide its value on Vezax.

Poromu · 06/17/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Xerophyte

Err, really? I took Frenzy for our first hard Vezax in 10-man and got 2 procs in 4 attempts, one from Aura of Despair being applied at the start and one from a lethal melee hit during a wipe. I had no procs that I noticed in 35ish applications of the Profound Darkness debuff and I was specifically looking for them. That's about an 0.5% probability if PD actually does trigger Frenzy so I could still simply have been very unlucky, but I'd rather like a log example here.

Unfortunately I don't have my logs for these attempts uploaded anywhere. I have the 2nd to last attempt where both the Frenzy procs for the evening happened and the kill where it was never triggered. (Sidenote: WoL's new buff uptime display is pretty nifty) There are only 16 applications of Profound Darkness in those two attempts; not getting any Frenzy procs is a 6% probability for that sample.

I looked through WMO's from our 25m hard Vezax attempts and I couldn't find anything pointing that it works, it procced but looking closer it was always from getting melee'd on a wipe, eating a crash (human error THANKS) or the aura applications. However I did notice the aura application from Profound Darkness proccing it on 3 attempts. I don't think it's worth the 3 points now though. Sorry for the missinformation.

I'll probably still keep the spec the way it is since I have begun to do arenas a little bit and OF fits a lot better than IIS or CF for both Vezax and PvP.

sbisordi · 06/17/09, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Eilt

It was a number I found after we completed a portion of our attempts. Here is the complete 18 attempts and normal kill.

Vezax Report

Wrath drops to average hit of 8,173 and average crit of 16,716, with a 49% crit rate. Starfire average hit is 11,893 with average crit of 25,723 and 36% chance to crit.

These numbers do include IS/Eclipse/Crash since they are part of the encounter

Weighting averages that adds up to 12,359 average Wrath and 13,630 average Starfire. With these spells averaging damage so close and wrath being so much cheaper I still seem to want to proc a solar eclipse and use a wrath filler. What is it that I am missing?

P.S. Thanks for dealing with my poor math skills and apologies ahead of time if I am missing something blatant...

Looks like you're reading that report incorrectly. That 35.8% figure is the percentage of total damage as a result of starfire casts -- the actual starfire crit rate is 46.1% (this is also shown if you hover over the 'damage done' number). Starfire's actual average damage is around 18,266 (6064582/332).

spiritryu · 06/17/09, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

Eyeballing it - I tried to get to grips with the ilvl formula but kept getting stupid answers (like ilvl 259 without taking sockets in to account). It's +10 stam, -3 int, -8 spirit, -19 crit. I really, really think that's off, especially as stam is 2/3rd of the cost of the other stats. Would be nice to get a confirmation either from someone who can use the formula properly, or from a Blizzard poster.

Ya, gaining 10 stam at the loss of 3 int, 8 spirit and 19 crit seems a bit much, so I posted it over in the Bug Report forums.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Gloves of the Frozen Glade
If there's anything else you'd like me to add to the post, just let me know.

Oh.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Gloves of the Frozen Glade
From a while back it seems. No info on it yet.

• Hamlet · 06/18/09, 2:28 PM

* Balance of Power: Now reduces all spell damage taken by 3/6%, rather than reducing the chance to be hit by spells by 2/4%.
* Eclipse: The Starfire and Wrath buffs from this talent are now on separate 30-second cooldowns. In addition, it is not possible to have both buffs active simultaneously.
* Owlkin Frenzy: Now also restores 2% base mana every 2 seconds for the duration (10 seconds) in addition to its current effects.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - PTR Patch 3.2.0 Notes

dukes · 06/18/09, 2:28 PM

Quick post because I'm in the middle of a raid, but:

Eclipse: The Starfire and Wrath buffs from this talent are now on separate 30 second. cooldowns. In addition, it is not possible to have both buffs active simultaneously.

\o/

Implications are pretty good from the standpoint of improving dps.

e;fb :[

Dacuse · 06/18/09, 2:29 PM