I understand the concept of trying to time our cast instead of using wiseeclipse, however from what i see with the change to eclipse, this wouldn't necessarily work. Either you are casting within lunar eclipse, or you're casting out of it. From 15 secs after your first eclipse starts, you cannot proc the next eclipse.. so how can timing our cast at just the right time still get the benefit of lunar eclipse to proc solar? I really don't think it can. I would happily be proven wrong with field testing though.

If i'mright, then actually waiting to cast a spell would be a dps loss and a headache.

You have to understand how WiseEclipse works. WiseEclipse exploits the fact that there is server lag, and that the damage modifiers are calculated client side (like crit).

The concept of timing in 3.3 is this (supposing you had 100ms roundtrip client-server lag and 11% haste [2.7027 sec Starfire casts] and no NG [this makes the example easier]):

00.00: lunar eclipse starts
00.00 - 10.81: spam starfire x4
10.81 - 12.19: wait - don't cast a spell
12.19 - 12.29: you cast starfire somewhere in this range of time
14.90 - 15.00: you send a message to server saying you finished casting with your current buffs (including your lunar eclipse proc)
15.00 - 15.10: you receive message containing your starfire damage (crit or regular hit). if it's a crit (which is more likely due to the fact that you casted starfire during lunar eclipse) then you proc solar eclipse

The above example is what we're trying to exploit here. Notice that we don't get the message of "crit or hit" immediately. By the time the client (you) receives the message, lunar eclipse had already finish proccing and is ready for solar eclipse.

I believe this is the guts of it, if I'm wrong please state so.

Yes, the concept is identical to WiseEclipse. And it's pretty easy to convincingly verify to yourself that it works on live. I'm actually hoping that it doesn't work the same way on PTR--I just found out about the API changes related to Eclipse (see SquawkAndAwe thread), and that gives me some minor hunch that maybe the behavior is sufficiently changed to avoid this. I still have to get onto the PTR and try again now that the WE-breaking change is on there.

Oy, I'm hoping we don't have to time our last SF like that. Because if it can be done, I'm pretty sure I'll be trying to do it, but it really does not sound fun.

Checked out the SAA thread after what Arawethion just said... That looks kinda grim. Should we be worried about it?

In the SAA thread, I think what's going on is that the Eclipse buff is changing. Unfortunately the change seems like it's going to break SAA as well. I think Arawethion is saying he hopes that whatever changes to the buff occur will avoid the need for "golf-timing".

Generally, the "golf-timing" exploit is not a very good gaming mechanic (and is completely not intended but also completely available at the moment) and will hopefully be fixed. Yes this means I'm hoping that they will nerf/fix us in hopes that blizzard will boost our dps in (without the need for this exploit). However, from what I hear, the +10% to eclipse and the +2% to t10 4pc seems to blizzard's plan to boost our dps in favor of the exploit/t8 problem.

I suppose the direct opposite analogy to this problem is any unintended difficult-to-perform bug that nerfs our DPS. Except in this case, it's an unintended difficult-to-perform bug that boosts our DPS.

My understanding of the changes that have been made is that WiseEclipse or Golfing are irrelevant in 3.3 due to the "no-eclipse" window that's been added. What I think has happened to SAA is that an artifact of the change caused the Eclipse proc message to disappear from the combat log. If this isn't fixed by the time it goes live, I'd expect it to be fixed in the first minor update -- there's no evidence that this functionality was crippled intentionally. I am going to try setting up ForteXorcist as a replacement, if needed.

Using previous numbers (and adjusted to account for the last changes)
2T8: 250
2T9: 360
4T9: 210
2T10: 230
4T10: 375

Dropping 2T8.226 for 2T9.245: 40 DPS lost from set bonuses, 120 DPS gained from stats (going up 1.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> +80 DPS

Dropping 4T9.245 for 2T10.251: 20 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS gained from stats (going up 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> +60 DPS, and probably more due to the superior itemization of the T10

Dropping 4T9.258 for 2T10.251: 20 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS lost from stats (going down 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> -20 DPS, need to check more exactly at some point, since the superior itemization of the T10 set might close the gap. And I don't think a lot of Moonkins will have 4 pieces of T9.258 considering we wouldn't want it before 3.3.. And even then only for a very short time.

Dropping 2T9.258 for 4T10.251: 15 DPS gained from set bonuses, 40 DPS lost from stats (going down 0.5 tiers in 2 slots). -> -25 DPS. At this point you should use the T9 chest and head piece and the itemization will be on par with the T10 set, so it will probably not be worth it.


Just wanted to point out the imminent gear changes facing us with the 3.3

(I mostly used numbers and methods provided previously by Arawethion)

I made the 'Golfing' addon, and it doesn't work in 3.3. The 15s of no Eclipse are, in fact, some time between 15.117 and 15.168, preventing from taking advantage of latency and proper timing.

To calculate this time, I made this code launch on SPELL_CAST_START
local _,_,_,_,_,endTime = UnitCastingInfo("player")
if endTime and expirationTimeEclipse then
print((endTime/1000)-expirationTimeEclipse)
end
and tried to proc the Solar with my golfing addon. I procced the earliest Solar at 0.168s after Eclipse's end and at 0.117s after the Eclipse's end I made the latest SF crit which didn't proc Solar.

Okay, good to know. This is what I was hoping was going on when we saw the change that was discussed in the S&A thread, although it's stlll unclear exactly what the mechanical underpinnings are. Did they just make the invisible Eclipse-blocking buff 15.1 seconds (which is roughly what I suggested they should do), or some more complex fix where the effective extra time somehow varies with lag. Either way, it seems we can probably stop worrying about this, which is good.

Still probably unintended that combat events don't fire; maybe I'll make a post about that.

Sorry I'm not too well versed in the blizzard lua code. I suppose if I knew what the code was saying, we might be able to see if Blizzard really pushed the eclipse timer a few hundred milliseconds after 15 seconds, or if those numbers are based on your lag. As Arawethion has suggested, it might be the case that blizzard has implemented an eclipse timer based off of your lag or something even more.

Regardless, it's good to see that I don't have to "golf" in 3.3, I haven't been practicing

If it's a 15.1 eclipse timer, then I suppose blizzard is going to have to watch out for those on satellite internet (> 1 second lag there).

I understand the time UnitCastingInfo and UnitBuff return are server-based, so it doesn't matter the lattency.

Word on the street is that it is coming just some times the last minute things don't get added to the patch notes.
But since it is word on the street...take it as you will.
Source:World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Eclipse not buffed?

Also it has been reported in the SAA thread that Squawk and Awe is broken.
For raiding moonkin's looking for a band-aid alternative for any possible raiding Tuesday or until SAA is fixed, there is:
Class timer
Sexy Cooldowns
Elkano's Buffbar
Tested and verified as working on the PRT for your tracking needs.

Courtesy of Restokin
Source:The new 3.3 Eclipse bug | Restokin

The Eclipse buff should be going through, it will just be one of those changes that got put in too late to make the patch notes. The patch notes are really long, and sometimes changes don't make the notes but still make it to the live server.

Also, there is a second addon that goes with Class timer, that adds the cooldown component. It's called Class Timer Eclipse.

Anyone know if ForteXorcist works on PTR?

It is in the patchnotes:

You don't have to understand blizzard's lua code to recognize that they put an internal timer on eclipse server side that trumps the proc to eliminate wiseeclipse.. which would also making golfing impossible as well. Its you that didn't understand, but thanks for several smart ass replies to people.

The code I posted above has nothing to do with WoW's internal code. As you can see through my posts, I like to provide the tools I use to find some infomation.
Refering to the code, It only prints by screen the time in seconds between the end of Eclipse and the end of your cast (this time is server's, not client's). By firing this code when you begin casting a Spell, you can determine the accuracy of your timing, and if you crit, you can determine the lenght of the No-Eclipse-15s (As Arawethion said earlier, if it was exactly 15s, you could time your casts to have a WE effect) by watching the Solar Eclipse procs, althought several tests are required.

Thanks copialinex for explaining to us and verifying that the eclipse timer is > 15 seconds. The time is suggested to be 15.1 seconds. Perhaps a good test would be to force yourself to have some massive lag (say half a second) by running some monster bittorrent in the background and see if you can still pull off a WE styled (or "golfing" i guess) starfire.

I have looked everywhere, and can't find if anyone has addressed it yet, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone but I was going through Arawethion's awesome Moonkin guide in his signature, and I was just wondering if it has been updated to address the crit buff to starfire. Since we have 10% more to reach the lunar cap, I was wondering if it's crossed anyone else's mind about our soft cap being lowered by 459 (45.9 to 1%, so 10%).

The 2T8 was nerfed from 15% to 7% crit during Lunar. The figures in the guide are accurate.

Ok thanks, was just curious because the talent template from mmo listed in the thread still has the old eclipse, so I wasn't sure if the entire thread was updated yet since the new eclipse was a kinda last minute change. Thanks for being on your game with the thread, very thorough

Another side effect to the fix to Eclipse is that it is no longer reported in the combat log and no longer shows up in parses online such as WMO or WOL.