I see a couple of options based from this talent tree idea (needing the last 2 talent points to be placed as per discussion).
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Effectively all I have taken away is 1 in Nature's Reach since in fights I am neither range deprieved or threat capped (except on maybe general at the start) and 2 points out of Intensity since I don't need the mana regen (and I have 2 points in Moonglow instead of Improved Moonfire due to being with the glyph of moonfire it adds little dmg increase, 0.5%?).

The talent build above therefore meets all the main criteria of a normal raiding build, but it allows me to put 2 points into either Owlkin Frenzy or 2 points into Nature's Focus. Further I could even drop 2 points from Furor and put it into Nature's Focus whilst having the others in Owlkin Frenzy just for the proc buff.

I guess it comes down to really which is the better one to get with the talents. But what this build does show is that you can use the talets to get pushback resistence for wrath without losing any effective DPS

One percent of the attributes I care about would mean about 11-12 intellect and 6 spirit, fully raid buffed. Compared to my wraths not getting pushed back? That's chump change.

Yeah, iMotW is total filler, it's a terrible DPS talent.

Prelimary look at the 3.2 rotation with no DoT's, as compared to a basic 3.1 Lunar rotation with no DoT's, is showing a 9% DPS increase, and crit becoming stronger than haste* (with both a bit under spellpower still).

*In the assumption that haste is wasted for NG'ed Wraths, but effective for all other spells.

Here are some new spreadsheet updates. First 3.2 model, and also the 3.1 sheet updated to reflect a few modeling changes, for better comparison.

Eclipse rotation is the obvious one, with 4 phases: pre-Lunar (W), Lunar (SF), pre-Solar (SF), Solar (W). Only one 3.2 DoT rotation in for now: Cast IS at the beginning of both pre-Lunar and pre-Solar. Cast MF at beginning of pre-Solar only if using Glyph of SF, otherwise cast MF at beginning of both pre-Solar and pre-Lunar.

This leads to pretty low DoT uptime actually. I'll try to add a constant DoT refreshing model soon, which will probably bring up the top end in the new model a bit.

No attempt yet at Idol swapping, mana (too lazy), or 4T8.

It's looking like at least a 5% increase in the basic stationary-target rotation. Idol of SF is still a bit stronger, although the Idol slot isn't nearly as efficient as before (as expected). Crit is looks stronger than Haste, although they're pretty close.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

IMotW is definately better than Furor as a dps talent. 1% int/spirit VS 2% int when we get a better conversion of spirit into spell power than int into spell power and crit. As well as the obvious 1% more stam too to help with more difficult/survival orientated encounters. To me dropping the 2 points from Furor will make much more sense than the 2 from iMotW.

I mean, they're both terrible DPS talents but to get to Master Shapeshifter you'll have 5 points to throw around after the 2/3 Nature's Focus. (Assuming you have ImpConc.)


I'm curious how we would go about macro'ing the idol swap into DoT's.

/cast insect swarm
/use idol of steadfast renewal

/cast moonfire
/use idol of the shooting star

This way if you're going into your Solar Eclipse you'd cast IS second in DoT applications and if you're going into Lunar Eclipse you'd cast MF second to get the idol you wanted on. Although my gut tells me the extention of the GCD will really hamper idol swappings usefulness unless moving.



Another thing i've been wondering, with the new Eclipse rotation when would be the best time to cast Starfall, seems like right as you proc your Solar Eclipse, to maximize NG uptime, or perhaps after your Lunar Eclipse ends so you can keep those SF cast times low to proc the Solar Eclipse.

Finally when would be the best time to use treants (heroism aside), inbetween eclipse procs or directly at the start of one? It seems like you lose less doing things at the start of your Solar Eclipse. I mean yes optimally you probably don't want to do anything inside eclipse time but nuke, but it seems unlikely since a Eclipse'd SF will probably proc your Solar Eclipse as soon as Lunar runs out.

IMotW is a touch worse than Furor--1 Spi gives less DPS than 1 Int, and we have less Spi than Int, so 1% is less of a stat gain. Both are trivial amounts of DPS though, if Wrath pushback is ever important.

I'll check on the Idol swapping soon (e: not today, it's kind of a pain to work into WC). But as I said above, remember you won't want to macro them into every DoT, you'll need to make two new buttons to have handy in your rotation.

Will check on the Eclipse thing too, but it's almost certainly best to cast extra stuff outside of Eclipse and extend the cycle a bit.

e: yeah, slightly less DPS loss to just delay Eclipse. The difference isn't huge though, again indicating that constant DoT refreshing is probably the way to go.

Best time to cast Starfall is probably the end of Lunar.

e: on the other hand, DoT's are worth less than they used to be, because there's no time to cast time without interfering with the Eclipse cycle.

Just a thought on Solar to Lunar eclipse transition, using the macro:

/cancelaura Eclipse
/cast Moonfire
/use Idol of the Shooting Star

My thinking is that this can be used following the final wrath under Solar eclipse during the travel time of the spell. My understanding is that this wrath will still receive the damage bonus from eclipse and will also be able to proc Lunar eclipse. The MF cast and idol swap also gives us a chance to see if Lunar does proc, and we can there go on to either casting SF or applying IS followed by wrath spam.

Edit: Thinking about it, this seems only useful if the travel time of wrath is smaller then the cast time of wrath, seeing as the buff will expire itself before the final cast hits if cast time < travel time.

On the same theme though, is there any situation where removing a specific eclipse so as to maximise the uptime of the other eclipse is beneficial? My current gear has me at 550 haste, so if I were to use this with the planned eclipse changes Solar would not be as useful to me as Lunar so maybe using such as:
[W W W...] (Lunar proc) [SF for 15+X] (Solar proc) [W for 15-X] (remove Solar eclipse) [W W W...] with DoTs put in where it is best. (X being the time taken to proc a solar eclipse)

I think what Arawethion is trying to say to us, is whether the extra GCD lost in changing idols ,is worth it while we are standing still on a boss fight.

The obvious is that we will be using both types of eclipses with 3.2 patch and even using our instant dots,a GCD is consumed on each one. So does the swap before the proc of the eclipses will result in more dps?

Maybe we can take that off our heads, just by using the IS idol and keep dots up all the time.

Okay, I'll not pretend that "idol twisting" cannot produce a DPS increase. I also won't question that refreshing dots in the middle of Eclipse can contribute to damage. But lets be realistic. Most of us are currently on Hard Modes in Ulduar 25 where roots keep spawning, mushrooms dictate if you can cast or not, and you have ice falling on your head most of the time.
Wouldn't in so hostile environments the goal be to simplify your rotation as much as you can?

Well, it's not like the major point of Starfall is to ensure high NG uptime. You use it for the damage, NG uptime was just a bonus.