Lilija

Most encounters might be easy but there are those few achivements where your single target dps will matter the most (3min Patchwerk, 8/20man Thaddius, Sartharion+3D and 5min Malygos). Of course it might depend what your guild really aims for but then again I really doubt anyone cares for the trash. As long as people aren't dying the trash will go quick even without additional AoE dmg from a moonkin.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Hurricane does nearly a third of my damage over the course of a raiding night. I don't see any reason to reduce that by 30% to increase single target damage by less than one percent.

 

Ioncannon

I think the idea of not getting gale winds is that id rather have higher boss dps than getting though trash faster. Every other aoe class can out aoe us so until hurricane gets a better coefficient i would focus on single target dps.

 

• Arawethion

Of the accomplishments you listed:
--2 do not in any way strain the DPS capabilities of a group that's moved fully from level70 gear to level80 gear (PW/Thaddius). Thaddius is even more notable because the Treants don't benefit from Charge buffs, so the contribution of Brambles to your DPS is miniscule.
--For 5-man Malygos, the only known strategy involves maximizing the ranged burn on Malygos as he flies away at the end of the P1. The Treants are useless.
--Sarth3D is the hardest encounter in the game, and involves tight single-target DPS burns. But, it also involves AoE, and so adding 30% and Clearcasting to your Hurricane is far more valuable than adding a few thousand total damage against Tenebron.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I get the concept behind it, but I don't think the results are worthwhile. I was 6th on trash on our last raiding night, and our relative position there will likely improve after the volley nerf. I don't think the other aoe classes really are that much superior. Some of them can have serious threat issues since their passive is just 10% compared to our 30%, I know our warlocks have eaten dirt quite a few times while I'm able to safely hurricane.

Also looking at just the bosses section of my last Naxx + Malygos + Sarth WWS parse, gale winds still provides more boss damage than brambles would.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I'm starting to think that the mana return from moonkin form needs to be nerfed at high levels of gear.

Wrath crits are returning more mana to me than the spell cost in the first place (something like 379 to cast, and I'm getting like 403 mana back). Starfire crits are returning close to 80% of the cost.

If you look at the Shaman and Paladin healing talents and abilities that function from crits, they're a fixed cost reduction or % of mana cost, not a % of total mana. I think they may need to do that for moonkin as well.

 

Lilija

I wasn't talking about brambles at all so I don't really understand what are you refering to. What I ment was that it is better to use single target dps buffing talents rather than AoE. Eventually, while reducing mana talents getting more AoE burst should be benefitial but not on the cost of single target dps.

As for Sarth+3D I still thing that burning the dragons faster gives more to the fight than 30% more AoE from the moonkin.

Now about the above need of nerf for moonkin mana regen - that would be a kill for 10 mans since you can't always have replenishment there and mana from crits in moonkin's main mana regen source.

 

Angelfire

Hey, thought I'd post my own WWS and get some comments:
Wow Web Stats
I know my spec is not optimal, but for the most part my mana pool is still not stable, even if I do get an SP/Shaman like I did in this run, so this will change once I have more spirit/crit.

What I'm concerned about is the DoT uptime, especially IS. I guess it's because my rotation is MF -> IS -> SF (I don't have eclipse yet, see my mana and crit issues, will get it as soon as I can spec out of mana talents), so that I only refresh IS when MF falls off, which means a long time without it. Would you recommend to change it and apply 2X IS per MF cast?

 

Lilija

Personally I would do exactly the same. The more breaks you have in SF spamming the worse it is for your dps (mostly due to latency).

 

Ashaera

If we are meant to use mana regen talents then you are very right - Its allready more than 50% of my mana return & my gear is hasteorientated. As long as moonkin form remains unchanged they I cant see moonkins in guilds with strong dps ever needing mana talents.

Another missing moonkin nerf seems to be Hurricane damage - Buffed with gale winds its practically as good as volley now, but only volley is being nerfed. When I had Gale Winds I was litterally destryoing damagemeters on trash, last clear I was 3rd without it.


Over a full instance Gale Winds is surely a better talent choice than Brambles - Right now it really doesnt matter though, both options have arguments in their favour, people just need to be aware of why they opt for 1 or the other. In the hunt for a sub 2min Patchwerk kill my choice is very clearcut, if your goal is faster clearing times then Gale Winds is by far the best.

 

ATheGreat

to be honest, i don't see why there's actually a debate regarding this, because as you said, the better our gear gets, the less we need regen talents, and i HIGHLY doubt that the people that are looking for the sub two minute pw kill are the same people that need a lot of regen talents in their build.

basically if you're not taking mana regen, you can get both and we can all go to sleep happy and satisfied.

 

Gormane

A small addition regarding the usefulness of Typhoon, I find it a lot of fun to kite the zombies during the 10 man Gluth encounter, for which I find Typhoon very useful. And depending on the raid composition, there may not be anybody else to do the kiting.

 

Lilija

Quite interesting solution But tell me then, what do you use for most effective zombie "catch"? Moonfire for sure would agro them fast but my owl experience tells me that spamming it no matter for what reason is very harsh for mana.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Yeah this is something I'd definitely like to see addressed, the huge difference in mana management between 10 and 25 mans.

In my 10 man, I'm missing a second paladin blessing for kings or wisdom, and a mage so we have no intellect buff and I'm down 10% crit.

I actually like to have intensity and dreamstate for 10 mans, while in 25 mans I need nothing at all. Not sure what they can really do to solve this beyond spreading out the raid buffs further.

 

Nitz

I did it as a resto druid in Naxx 10 since our mages failed at kitting, mana wasn't really an issue. I think moonkin form built-in regen will allow you to last enough time, with Innervate and a pot.

 

Trouble

I definitely agree with this. I'm down to nearly no talent points in mana regen and I still can't run out of mana if I want to versus a single target and don't have much trouble AoEing a lot. We're due for a nerf in the mana regen department and I'm wondering how long until it comes.

 

skeldi

I'd like to interject my opinion on Typhoon if I may:
There is no single larger source of damage per second cast a moonkin can put out against several mobs (let's say 3+) than with Typhoon. Combine this with the fact that it has 0 diminishing returns (will hit 3 mobs each for 1500, will hit 30 mobs for 1500 each), it is an enormous source of aoe damage. I think it's foolish to not invest 1 point for an amazing aoe talent.

 

Okku

Can anyone give me their thoughts (or some math) regarding when Haste becomes more valuable then SP? I've searched far and wide and can't seem to find any discussion about itemization in the higher SP ranges (2.2k+). I'm using a pretty standard (IFF)IS>MF>W>SF rotation and I've seen modest dps gains in regemming to more Haste, but before I go all in haste-wise I was wondering if there was a consensus on the topic.
My apologies to any who can link me to a thread regarding this subject.

 

• Adoriele

Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion, and things haven't changed much since. I may be able to use a similar trick to coax those values out to the one I used to skip all the messy math on scaling numbers, but it's gonna be a while until I can research it. Good news is that if I can, it'll be rotation-specific, like the scaling numbers, something I'd never have been able to do manually.

 

Humbaba

Given the generally accepted moonkin rotation of IS/MF/W into SF eclipse, SF during cooldown, repeat, what does this correspond to in Rawr's moonkin module? What's the difference between say "IS/MF/W RDPS" and "IS/MF/W DPS"? Is any of this documented somewhere and I just missed it?

 

• Adoriele

R(aw )DPS in the Stats page means DPS without concern for mana, i.e. the total damage done per rotation over the time spent. DPS takes into account whether you go OOM before the end of a fight, much the way Efejel's sheet used to calculate it.

RDPS in the item comparison panel (and hence the optimizer) means the same thing for your highest DPS rotation unless you have a specific rotation selected in the options page. If you do, it's that rotation's DPS so that you can optimize around it. Not sure if this is with or without regard to mana, my gut says without.

 

• Arawethion

Did we ever get a good explanation posted of exactly what the different Rawr cycles mean?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

thedopefishlives

Multiple times, but here it is again. With no Eclipse and no Starfire glyph, the DPS cycle selected is exactly what it says on the Rawr page. When you have the Starfire glyph selected, any cycles that use Wrath as their main nuke and have Moonfire in them will have 3 Starfire casts added to them to make use of the Starfire glyph. So, for example, IS/MF/W is, in actuality, MF/SFx3/IS/Wxn. With Eclipse, there are two possibilities, depending on whether you have Smart Switching selected. If it is NOT selected, Rawr models switching to the opposite spell only when Eclipse procs; that is to say, if your rotation is MF/SF, it will model always casting Starfire until Eclipse procs, then casting Wrath under Eclipse, then returning to Starfire when the proc is over. With Smart Switching enabled, it attempts to model forcing a proc. Using the earlier MF/SF example, it will cast Starfire until Eclipse's internal CD is up, then it will switch to Wrath until Eclipse procs, then return to Starfire for the duration of the proc and until the CD is up again. As an aside, I'm kicking around the idea of ditching the old calculation model entirely sometime in the near future.

 

• Arawethion

So if, even with Smart Switching ticked, Rawr lists IS/MF/W above IS/MF/SF, it's telling me I should be using SF to proc Wrath?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Ashaera

For rotations use Wrathcalc & base your own rotation upon its "Damage per Execute Time" table.