Moonkin Raiding - Page 111

Atheril92 · 06/24/09, 3:24 PM

Testing set out now

-50% proc chance on relic (possibly higher)
--Procs so much it's annoying. It's the same animation as the finishing of a healing spell
--Might be bugged? Seems stupidly high proc
-Moonfire crits are 200%
--Do not proc NG
--Do not regen mana from Moonkin Form

The 'new' Eclipse isn't currently implemented

Kaug · 06/24/09, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Atheril92

Testing set out now

-50% proc chance on relic (possibly higher)
-Moonfire crits are 200%, no NG proc

The 'new' Eclipse isn't currently implemented

Seems odd that they would not trigger NG.
Anyone know if the MF dot Crits will return mana? Image the BG MF spam that would go on

Atheril92 · 06/24/09, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kaug

Seems odd that they would not trigger NG.
Anyone know if the MF dot Crits will return mana? Image the BG MF spam that would go on

Nope D:

• Hamlet · 06/24/09, 3:57 PM

Here's a quick update with the new stuff. 2T9 and 4T9 as listed. Idol lazily implemented as a constant 200 crit; if the proc rate's really that high it blows away all previous Idols. 2T9 raises the value of crit compared to haste, raises the value of Glyphs of SF/MF (irrelevant unless more DPS Glyphs appear), and raises the value of ImpMF to make it quite worthwhile.

Dráconus · 06/24/09, 4:22 PM

On a sidenote: 2pc T8 is going to be putting is rather close to the crit cap during a lunar eclipse while 4pc T9 is.....annoying.....with both eclipses used.'

I do hope some of these are placeholder values and real upgrades are given.

Altiris · 06/24/09, 4:32 PM

50% proc chance per tick sounds like close to 100% uptime if you ask me...

Lord BEEF · 06/24/09, 4:34 PM

Improved moonfire should effect the periodic crits that you get with 2pc T9 but I would still recommend testing it, just in case it was coded such that the crit portion of the talent only effects the initial cast

The Inevitable · 06/24/09, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Make sure you're thinking through what you're doing before you spend a lot of time tinkering with the spreadsheet. I'd assumed you were talking about Vezax hardmode if you were going to all the trouble to think about this fight. If, as you say, you're trying maximize the total damage out of your mana bar, then all that matters is DPM. Cast time, clipping, and any other timing issues are irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Solar "lasts longer"; you can make anything last longer by standing around doing nothing for a bit. It's completely obvious, for example, that you wouldn't cast Moonfire (except on Clearcasts), you don't need to model the rotation to find this out.

Except that the results are different than the expectations; I posted the modified version of the spreadsheet because there seems to be a lot of misinformation going around (I was surprised myself, so I thought I'd share rather than keep it to myself). Moonfire inside of Shadow Crash is 84.63 DPM, which is 55% less mana efficient than the 153.55 DPM of just Starfire. Your expectations believe that because its so mana inefficient, it shouldn't be cast at all or only during an OoC proc, but, the fact is, despite the inefficiencies of the spell, it actually increases the DPM and damage done of the rotation and should be cast regardless of an OoC proc. My original attempts with a calculator made me want to get a better and more concise answer, and it was these inconsistencies of what is expected or should be obvious that made me seek the truth for myself. In the end, DPM of the spell didn't really matter and the DPM of the rotations on the original and the modified spreadsheets showed the same ranking by DPM, but just knowing that much wouldn't have satisfied me.

The only nontrivial issue is Solar vs. Lunar. Eclipsed Starfires give significantly better DPM than Eclipsed Wraths, but uneclipsed Starfires also have better DPM than uneclipsed Wraths. But the issue is the frequent interruption to dodge crashes making the very swingy Lunar rotation impractical. Interruptions due to movement can detract from Eclipse time but not from pre-Eclipse time (this is an irritation with our class on every fight, actually), so frequent movement works heavily against a rotation that requires you to invest in a full Eclipse to get a minor overall benefit.

During Animus, where you might want to trade a bit of efficiency for DPS, I'm not sure anything changes--Solar is more consistent that Lunar in terms of both DPS and DPM. Also, your guild will certainly have Bloodlust up, during which you'd want to just spam Starfire.

I agree that proccing Solar is more consistent (and, actually, I prefer Solar to Lunar), but, once either is procced, its probably likely you won't get a full Eclipse cycle out of either due to moving for Shadow Crash. Even with my meager amount of haste (269 rating), my NG-assisted Starfires clip the GCD just like Wrath which likely means the number of Starfires or Wraths that can or will be casted within Eclipse will be about the same. Bloodlust/Heroism will make almost no difference to us, so the normal best rotation would still apply even during Bloodlust/Heroism. (I didn't notice until now that Starfire was getting GCD clipped as well until I tried changing the "Total haste" field again and saw Starfire's cast time not change due to the 1sec+Latency+Reaction Time calculations).

I'm still going to modify the more recent spreadsheet to at least verify the results I got from the 090519 version; once I'm done, I'll make it available to download (it could be even that all of my reults will change with the new version! ; ). Oh, and my apologies if I misunderstood what you were trying to say; I'm not entirely clear on the point you were trying to make with Lunar vs. Solar, so I tried to respond as best I could.

Starfox · 06/24/09, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kiniaa

On a side note i really do hope that 2t9 bonus will compete with 4t8

You'll be suprised:
SimulationCraft run with 3.2.0 mechanics, optimal_raid=1

Druid_T8	2T8 + 4T8
Druid_T8_T9	2T8 + 2T9

druid=Druid_T8
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xRbuiIsfdIVhouZbxczb
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion
actions+=/innervate,trigger=19000
actions+=/treants
actions+=/starfall,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/moonfire,eclipse_left>=12,skip_on_eclipse=-1
actions+=/insect_swarm,eclipse_left>=12,skip_on_eclipse=-1
actions+=/starfire,instant=1,extendmf=1
actions+=/wrath,eclipse=benefit
actions+=/starfire,instant=1
actions+=/wrath,eclipse=trigger
actions+=/use_item,name=scale_of_fates
actions+=/starfire,eclipse=benefit
actions+=/starfire,eclipse=trigger

# Standard Gear Attributes http://www.chardev.org/?template=176626
gear_stamina=958
gear_intellect=1005
gear_spirit=464
gear_spell_power=2361
gear_hit_rating=261
gear_crit_rating=614
gear_haste_rating=349

tier8_2pc=1
tier8_4pc=1

# Meta Gem
meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare

# Item Procs
items=flare_of_the_heavens/scale_of_fates

# Glyphs
glyphs=moonfire/starfire/insect_swarm

# Relic
idol=idol_of_the_shooting_star

Druid_T8_T9 just got the tier bonus changed, the actions with instant=1 will be ignores because he'll never get the proc anyways

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.0 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  14113 100.0%  Raid
   7131  50.5%  Druid_T8_T9
   6996  49.5%  Druid_T8

Player=Druid_T8 (balance)  DPS=6995.7 (Error=+/-3.8 Range=+/-752)  DPR=22.9  RS=305.1/300.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=94  agility=77  stamina=1058  intellect=1257  spirit=625  health=14000  mana=22076
  Spell Stats:  power=2699  hit=13.95%  crit=22.76%  penetration=0  haste=10.64%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats  power=-362  hit=7.96%  crit=21.77%  expertise=0.00  penetration=0.00%  haste=13.84%
  Defense Stats:  armor=154
  Glyphs: moonfire/starfire/insect_swarm
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 15.9|19.1sec  DPE=  9315| 7%  DPET=  7872  DPR=  35.2  pDPS= 495  Miss=0.1%  TickCount=109  Tick=1364
    moonfire              Count=  9.7|32.2sec  DPE= 11494| 5%  DPET=  9504  DPR=  16.9  pDPS= 371  Miss=0.1%  Hit= 334  Crit=  699|  775|50.3%  TickCount=72  Tick=1467
    starfall              Count=  3.8|96.0sec  DPE= 12798| 2%  DPET= 10275  DPR=   9.8  pDPS= 163  Miss=0.1%  TickCount=73  Tick=449  CritTick=941|1648|44.2%
    starfire              Count= 73.0| 3.9sec  DPE= 12724|44%  DPET=  6601  DPR=  24.9  pDPS=3098  Miss=0.1%  Hit=6890  Crit=14421|16726|77.5%
    wrath                 Count=106.8| 2.7sec  DPE=  7345|37%  DPET=  6484  DPR=  20.9  pDPS=2618  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4954  Crit=10353|13444|44.3%
   treants  (DPS=355.8)
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE=  1785| 4%  DPET=  1226  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 250  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1866  Crit= 3733| 3946|8.2%  Glance=1400|24.0%  Dodge=6.5%

Player=Druid_T8_T9 (balance)  DPS=7131.1 (Error=+/-3.8 Range=+/-803)  DPR=23.6  RS=301.9/297.8  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=94  agility=77  stamina=1058  intellect=1257  spirit=625  health=14000  mana=22076
  Spell Stats:  power=2699  hit=13.95%  crit=22.76%  penetration=0  haste=10.64%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats  power=-362  hit=7.96%  crit=21.77%  expertise=0.00  penetration=0.00%  haste=13.84%
  Defense Stats:  armor=154
  Glyphs: moonfire/starfire/insect_swarm
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 15.9|19.1sec  DPE=  9315| 7%  DPET=  7877  DPR=  35.2  pDPS= 495  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=109  Tick=1363
    moonfire              Count=  9.8|31.9sec  DPE= 17398| 8%  DPET= 14393  DPR=  25.6  pDPS= 566  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 334  Crit=  699|  775|50.2%  TickCount=72  Tick=1467  CritTick=3067|3497|50.4%
    starfall              Count=  3.8|96.0sec  DPE= 12791| 2%  DPET= 10274  DPR=   9.8  pDPS= 163  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=73  Tick=450  CritTick=938|1648|44.3%
    starfire              Count= 68.7| 4.2sec  DPE= 12885|41%  DPET=  6471  DPR=  25.2  pDPS=2954  Miss=0.1%  Hit=6880  Crit=14421|16726|79.7%
    wrath                 Count=110.2| 2.6sec  DPE=  7352|38%  DPET=  6492  DPR=  20.9  pDPS=2703  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4959  Crit=10363|13444|44.3%
   treants  (DPS=355.7)
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE=  1785| 4%  DPET=  1226  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 250  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1866  Crit= 3731| 3946|8.2%  Glance=1399|24.0%  Dodge=6.5%

Gains:

    Druid_T8:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5530.1  (overflow=15.4%)
        initial_mana=25994.3
        judgement_of_wisdom=6865.0  (overflow=1.5%)
        mana_potion=1124.6
        moonkin_form=54253.7  (overflow=4.1%)
        mp5_regen=5654.0  (overflow=11.2%)
        omen_of_clarity=5393.4
        replenishment=16669.9  (overflow=14.3%)
        spirit_intellect_regen=16.7  (overflow=50.1%)

    Druid_T8_T9:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5469.9  (overflow=16.3%)
        initial_mana=25994.3
        judgement_of_wisdom=6821.7  (overflow=1.5%)
        mana_potion=860.9
        moonkin_form=53953.6  (overflow=4.3%)
        mp5_regen=5608.3  (overflow=11.9%)
        omen_of_clarity=5342.2
        replenishment=16500.6  (overflow=15.2%)
        spirit_intellect_regen=16.8  (overflow=52.2%)

Procs:

    Druid_T8:
        flare_of_the_heavens=5.7|52.19sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=99.7|3.01sec
        omen_of_clarity=12.0|25.01sec
        scale_of_fates=3.0|100.16sec
        tier8_4pc=8.6|34.66sec

    Druid_T8_T9:
        flare_of_the_heavens=5.7|52.13sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=99.1|3.02sec
        omen_of_clarity=11.9|25.09sec
        scale_of_fates=3.0|99.97sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy                  
        100.0% : improved_scorch               
        100.0% : improved_shadow_bolt          
        100.0% : master_poisoner               
        100.0% : savage_combat                 
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath                
        100.0% : winters_chill                 

    Druid_T8:
         68.2% : eclipse_starfire              
         66.4% : eclipse_wrath                 
         85.2% : natures_grace                 
        100.0% : replenishment                 

    Druid_T8_T9:
         72.7% : eclipse_starfire              
         66.7% : eclipse_wrath                 
         85.4% : natures_grace                 
        100.0% : replenishment                 

Waiting:
     0.0% : Druid_T8
     0.0% : Druid_T8_T9

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 34145455
  MaxEventQueue = 28
  TargetHealth  = 4229142
  SimSeconds    = 2999389
  CpuSeconds    = 36.563
  SpeedUp       = 82033

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=0.999815 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000032

The problem is 2T8, when you get into solar eclipse you should skip the instant-sf, because a wrath will actually deal more damage. Also you could say to use the proc under solar if it would extend your moonfire, but to get into solar you had to cast starfire, it was ~10dps gain in my simulations.
Current 4T9 seems to be a placeholder, wonder what they come up with, now that with 3.2.0 the 2T8 bonus becomes just uber-awesome

• Hamlet · 06/24/09, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Starfox

The problem is 2T8, when you get into solar eclipse you should skip the instant-sf, because a wrath will actually deal more damage.

An instant SF is better DPET than an Eclipsed Wrath.

Brewdinar · 06/24/09, 5:34 PM

Are there any thoughts on spell twisting SF/W when we're not under either Eclipse ICD? Granted that it's a circumstance that only occurs once at the very beginning of each fight, and perhaps after extended movement, but as such a simple change, if it can make even a small dps improvement, it'd be nice to know.

I haven't the knack for modeling it myself, but it seems like an extra GCD casting the correct Eclipsed spell, stacked against the possibility of getting whichever Eclipse proc you don't like once more than the other, if the fight duration and RNG end up that way. I suppose there might be additional benefit in that even a braindead player will be guaranteed to pop their 4T8 procs quickly when twisting, and to extend the initial MF at least once.

Dráconus · 06/24/09, 5:36 PM

Instant starfires during a solar eclipse may also provide the 2nd or 3rd starfire for your starfire glyph.

Starfox · 06/26/09, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

An instant SF is better DPET than an Eclipsed Wrath.

Now that you point it out >:C

But 3.2.0 is giving me headaches with BiS gear list for SimulationCraft, as you don't only have to get near 263, but with the change to eclipse you get a new value to watch out where your one scale factors suddenly loses its value: 400 haste.
That's when you reach 1.0-gcd with NG, CF and 5% ToW.
I had one profile, hitcap, 373haste etc. and as plenty of new hardmode items are out, I started bothering about a profile update. So I did a scale factor run in SC and got:

gear_crit_rating=568
gear_haste_rating=373
Druid_4T8  0.61  Spi=0.50  SP=1.51  Hit=3.03  Crit=1.19  Haste=0.26  Lag=0.00

Pretty abysmal results for haste, so I went on with the lootrank link and updated a few parts:

gear_crit_rating=767
gear_haste_rating=216
Druid_4T8  0.59  Spi=0.50  SP=1.51  Hit=2.95  Crit=1.09  Haste=1.72  Lag=0.00

Aye caramba

Whispah · 06/26/09, 11:05 AM

Seing your calculations on crit / haste rating makes me wonder, will it be worth to actually gem spellp/crit instead of pure spellp? if you have hitcap ofc.

Been pondering about it since the release of t8 information. Since you'll procc eclipse faster (both next patch) and also get some more crit for the solar elcipse to get those nice crit streaks in.

Poromu · 06/26/09, 12:06 PM

That basically boils down to stat values and socket bonuses. Pt for pt spell power will almost always outweigh haste or crit, however if you're getting a 7-9 spell power bonus from the sockets then yes it'll be worth using a spell power and haste or crit gem depending where you're at.

I'm still under the impression that haste will still outweigh crit until you reach the 400 haste mark.