You're picking up 100 spellpower going to Nibelung from Illumination. It should be a pretty clear bump up overall.

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I find typhoon useful against Lady Deathwhisper when ads get a bit hectic for sloppy raids, it dazes also. I find it useful for Rotface and Putricide too, where the daze works on all Oozes, and on Rotface helps buy your kiter extra time. Very useful. [can someone verify the knockback on the Rotface slimes, it doesn't knock back the Putricide ones.

I also find Typhoon a dps increase on any AoE mobs, Typhoon does twice the damage of a Hurricane tick, within a certain range of haste, at a hurricane tick a second, Typhoon ... I was just going to say is a gain, but I will have to do little bit of simple maths on this, factoring the effect of your haste rating on your hurricane. The GCD of typhoon without haste is 1.5secs and makes it worthwhile using every time it is off cooldown with hurricane. This should be true up until your GCD is been cut to 1secs, below that point, hurricane gains, as it just ticks for much more than every second.

There is a threshold point where typhoon will no longer be a dps increase to you, for e.g. if you're channelling hurricane with a heroism, or haste pot, in which case no need to typhoon alongside till the effect is done. After that, you may return to using it in your aoe cycle everytime it is off cooldown.

Typhoon only useful on saurfang so far, on lady deathwhisper I don't find it necessary but I can see it's advantages.

Actually (as it has been said before) Typhoon is great to use before a Hurricane because it will give you a chance (almost garanteed if 4+ targets which is where you Hurricane anyway) to proc Nature's grace, thus giving +20% haste to your next Hurricane.

So there is no threshold point in haste when Typhoon + NG'd Hurricane is not better than Non-NG'd Hurricane. Well there is one actually, but it would requiert massive amount of haste we could only achieve through special buffs in special fights (like Vezax maybe if there was something to aoe). Not something we can achieve with gear and standard raid buffs.

Of course don't use Typhoon while under the effect of Nature's grace thanks to Starfall. Best burst aoe we can do is : Starfall -> NG'd Hurricane x2 -> Typhoon -> NG'd Hurricane, after that keep using Typhoon between your Hurricanes when possible.

Of course DON'T DO THAT in raid if you didn't glyph it (minor glyph for no pushback).

*edit : did some napkin maths and there might be a threshold in the effectiveness of the Typhoon+Hurricane combo. As long as you have less than 50% haste (ignoring Nature's grace), it takes longer in theory to do a full non-NG'd Hurricane than a Typhoon+NG'd Hurricane, so the combo wins by a wide margin.
However, we have to take into account that there is latency to add between Typhoon and Hurricane, since Typhoon is instant and Hurricane requires 2 clicks to launch, so we have to add whatever connection latency we have and then add some time to place the hurricane. Considering we are very skilled players and all, we can assume a simple 2x connection latency, which would be quite accurate if our mouse is already on the area we will Hurricane upon and we don't have some brain lag.
With a good connection (100ms) this will lower the threshold to 40% haste, and with a standard one (200ms) we drop to 26% haste.

So yeah when the average Joe gets to 30% passive haste he may not gain as much as before doing this over a Hurricane spamm. We may actually all reconsider doing it during heroism/bloodlust at a certain lvl of haste.

Disclaimer : Typhoon+Hurricane combo should still be superior dps after the threshold I just described, it just gradually looses of its power because of the 0.2-0.5sec we loose doing it, and the fact that the gcd of Typhoon doesn't get shorter after 33% haste

I think the overall point trying to be made by Fonzey is that versus a single target in a non aoe situation one would never use typhoon as part of their rotation.

Here's something interesting we might want to look at.

With the rediculous amounts of haste we get with the new gear, here is some food for thought.

Is there a point were you have enough haste that it benefits to switch your rotation to something that looks like this.

Wrath until Eclipse Procs > Starfire through the eclipse and continue even through the solar eclipse, click off solar eclipse once the 15 second cooldown on lunar is up, then repeat

No he is asking is there a point at which (with enough haste) that non eclipsed starfire > eclipsed wrath, and well that is possible its around 2k(a little less) haste, and wont ever happen.

On a slightly similar note im seeing engineering coming out ahead of other professions with icc gear (ie, crit and haste capped) even given use every 80s (every other lunar eclipse) i have it valued at around 58sp and thats assuming fight ends right as cool down comes up meaning lowest possible value.

I believe it was in ToC too. It gets seriously shortchanged by averaging it and treating it as post cap haste rather than extending the cooldown and treating it like pre-cap haste.

I defenetly don't change to wrath if i'm e.g. under Heroism when my wrath cast time becomes 0.6-0.7 depending if 10/25 raid. But i guess, ok i didn't know the exact calculating but i tried a lot at a dummy, that in normal the change from starfire to wrath during solar eclipse let me do more dps than persisting on starfire. I think that , at least i get the haste i have know under heroism , i wont change the cycle

While it should never be part of a 'rotation', it's still *very* useful to have in ICC - there is no fight that does not include a substantial amount of movement at some point (except possibly Saurfang, and it's obviously useful there), and typhoon gives you something to do while running other than refresh your dots (which are often fairly fresh already). Starfall falls into the same category.

Patchwerk is dead, and your motionless dps is no longer really relevant.

WC will show you whether your uneclipsed Starfire is better DPET than your Eclipsed Wrath. It's typically very close under Bloodlust--I find it easiest to simply maintain the standard rotation. My Wrath is still showing slightly better, and I have unusually high haste in my Moonkin gear (over 600).

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Nibelung. Mages are reporting Nibelung procs off of Imp. Blizzard and Ignite applications (not ticks). Still has to be verified a bit better, but might explain proc rates seemingly higher than the 1% from the spell data. I don't remember offhand whether Earth and Moon is technically a spell cast by the player, but the 4T10 Languish proc probably will be.

my guess would be no since putting up IS doesn't apply any direct damage.

I'm sure it does proc off of IS application, it definately proc's off of hurricane cast - I've just been in a city and cast hurricane randomly and proc'd it (There were not rats around).

Proc's from ff cast, and loves starfall, tried a full mana bar of IS on test dummy with no joy, best so far was 4 at the same time, dps output went up to 7.5k on HC dummy.

DFO has a 45sec ICD. Phylactery's might not be 90 seconds.

Yeah, that was a typo. 105*5.5*20/45 is in fact 257.

Phylactery we don't know for sure, but 90s would be expected given the 20s uptime (before you bring up DFO, that one's odd due to the stacking effect--10/45 is the usual ratio). And it makes the mean spellpower commensurate with similar-ilvl trinkets (like Muradin's).

We have a significantly higher chance to crit with SF on average (due to Lunar Eclipse).. The proc may interact with Nature's grace or moonkin mana regen, since it would explain the higher % on SF.

If it procs on NG it would explain the high chance to proc one on Starfall, beside the lots of hit generated we have plenty of NG refreshing.

I'm just curious, but what gear/trinkets were you using when you tested Nibelung on the dummy. Can the Valkyr proc off of Reign of the Dead shards or pillars? I think I can imagine a situation where you could get more or fewer Reign procs from spamming one spell or another due to the differences in cast time. Although, I suppose it is hard to believe that would account for the 5 fold increase in procs per cast (0.3->1.5 extra percent excluding the 1% extra from E&M). Another random idea is that Blizzard might have implemented a mechanic so that the proc chance would increase with the base cast time of a given spell, but that too is hard to judge without knowing your gear setup.

Regardless given your data and assuming you haven't respecced since your testing, I think we can rule out it proccing off of Nature's Grace since you spec into NG in your resto spec (and get exactly 1% proc chance there).


A related question, since Nibelung does indeed seems to proc off applications of E&M: if an unholy DK puts up Ebon Plaguebringer (or curse of elements) on a target before we get E&M on a target, can we still apply E&M? If we can't, will we still see the elevated proc chance?

Was using the setup that's in my Armory right now. No Reign.

That's an amusing thought on Ebon Plaguebringer--no idea, and kind of a pain to test. That would be quite irritating.

Another idea is that the starfire glyph is increasing its proc chance.

This is a good possibility. Anyone want to test Starfire in Resto spec (no E&M or Glyph) and Starfire with E&M, but not Glyph?

E&M with Ebon Plague on the target would be handy too.

Should need like 1000 casts for pretty good resolution to see what's going on.

Edit : Ignore this post.