Moonkin Raiding - Page 118

spiritryu · 07/12/09, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Europe

Just looking over the coliseum itemization, do my eyes deceive me? I see...spiritless SP leather! and a spiritless caster staff. It seems like Blizz is finally acknowledging that this is the moonkin's preference. But if so, why the hell does our set gear still have so much spirit?

Though it was only the 5man loot, I caught a glimpse of leather gear with hit too.

Originally Posted by raidingmail

I was looking at some of the new items as well I'm curious if anyone has taken the time to sit down and break the new items down stats wise and throw them into a Bis list for the future of if people are still waiting for everything to be released.

It seems a bit early to be looking for BiS gear for the Coliseum. No point in trying to formulate a BiS list when something with the loot could still change.

Orin · 07/13/09, 1:46 PM

Incorrect info, please disregard.

• Hamlet · 07/13/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Orin

Probably because you still need some amount of mana regen in 3.2, you can't abandon it entirely. Current itemization means we can give up almost all talents for regen because our gear provides plenty. In the future perhaps we will have less from gear, and would have to decide if we make up for it with talents so we don't go oom in raids.

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Poromu · 07/13/09, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Yea, I think we're all scratching our heads. The fact is that once you learn encounters the margin or error is smaller and hence mana regen becomes less needed. Especially with the stats increased from the gear we're getting more bang for our buck.

Typically finishing any fight but Vezax i'm way ahead on mana compared to Ulduar's release when it was constantly a concern. I honestly hope I don't have to go back to Intensity and I can just stick with my Moonglow/OoC. (Which to be honest, I preferred ditching both and just relying on Innervates, but the hard modes i'm starting to see more and more healers could benefit from a small dps loss on my end to fill their mana bars.)

amped · 07/13/09, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Yea, I think we're all scratching our heads. The fact is that once you learn encounters the margin or error is smaller and hence mana regen becomes less needed. Especially with the stats increased from the gear we're getting more bang for our buck.

Typically finishing any fight but Vezax i'm way ahead on mana compared to Ulduar's release when it was constantly a concern. I honestly hope I don't have to go back to Intensity and I can just stick with my Moonglow/OoC. (Which to be honest, I preferred ditching both and just relying on Innervates, but the hard modes i'm starting to see more and more healers could benefit from a small dps loss on my end to fill their mana bars.)

That's been exactly my philosophy since the beginning of Ulduar, taking the mana regen talents so that you never have to use your innervate and you can save it for a healer. Only occasionally do I have to respec into Typhoon for fights like Freya +3, and for the most part AoEs in Ulduar don't really require 2/2 Gale Winds to be competitive if you use a well-timed Starfall for a 20% hastened Hurricane from NG.

• Hamlet · 07/13/09, 5:07 PM

Hah, yes, I agree with both of the above, but I was merely pointing out that that comment made no sense--Spirit only gives us regen if we take Intensity in the first place. Therefore it obviously can't serve the purpose of alleviating the need for Intensity.

Ranghar · 07/13/09, 6:14 PM

What gives us a lot of mana is Moonkin form. Every crit gives 2% total mana. If your gear quality is x, your regeneration is proportional to x^2 (int*crit) what is unheard of among other classes. It scales extremely well - in my current gear I regenerate 500-600 mp5 from this source alone. If you upgrade to coliseum spiritless gear (and equip new idol), your crit and mana will go up a lot. If they don't nerf it, I will be able to remove mana bar from my user interface as an unnecessary clutter.

Xerophyte · 07/13/09, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ranghar

What gives us a lot of mana is Moonkin form. Every crit gives 2% total mana.

Essentially this. Our 4 largest mana sources are, in order of significance: Moonkin Form, our base mana pool, Replenishment and Judgment of Wisdom. In terms of stats Spirit is almost purely throughput while mana is primarily gained through Int and Crit. If they both go up in 3.2 -- which is essentially guaranteed, especially if we get spiritless gear in the raids as well as the 5-man -- then mana will actually become less relevant.

Orin · 07/13/09, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Yes, you are correct. I normally raid Resto with Moonkin as my off-spec, so had forgotten that without Intensity my regen from Spirit is nil.

klüger · 07/14/09, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Xerophyte

Essentially this. Our 4 largest mana sources are, in order of significance: Moonkin Form, our base mana pool, Replenishment and Judgment of Wisdom. In terms of stats Spirit is almost purely throughput while mana is primarily gained through Int and Crit. If they both go up in 3.2 -- which is essentially guaranteed, especially if we get spiritless gear in the raids as well as the 5-man -- then mana will actually become less relevant.

one thing though, with 3.2 the new eclipse comes, and unless the icd of lunar is such that you can chain it, you will be casting a lot more wraths, which will mean our mana-need goes up some.

As it is I'm running a no-regen specc, and it works well but I'm teetering on the edge on some hardmodes. Come 3.2 I will have to take some regen (I'm thinking typhoon for ooc and/or gale winds for intensity), just because of the increased mana-usage from the higher % of wrath casts.
The change to innervate should help us some though.

Altiris · 07/14/09, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

one thing though, with 3.2 the new eclipse comes, and unless the icd of lunar is such that you can chain it, you will be casting a lot more wraths, which will mean our mana-need goes up some.

As it is I'm running a no-regen specc, and it works well but I'm teetering on the edge on some hardmodes. Come 3.2 I will have to take some regen (I'm thinking typhoon for ooc and/or gale winds for intensity), just because of the increased mana-usage from the higher % of wrath casts.
The change to innervate should help us some though.

The change to innervate will not help us, except possibly under some bizarre circumstances which I cannot currently predict. You still have to wait until you are down a certain amount of mana before using it. Say you lose 16k mana in 120 seconds. That means you currently innervate at 120 seconds, and would innervate in 3.2 at 60 seconds. If the fight ends after 4 minutes, you can still only innervate once, but it will give you half as much mana. If the fight ends after 5 minutes, you could now innervate twice in 3.2, but only for the same amount of mana as once in 3.1.

Ruin · 07/14/09, 7:56 AM

It will help as an innvervate will give somebody OoM most of a bar of mana, most people don't have to go through that much and the person you innervate usually wastes a lot of the mana gained when he finishes the fight with lots of it: there is less waste, 2 people getting half a mana bar is about twice as helpful as 1 person getting a full one.

Also you can cast it much sooner in the fight, so in a long fight there is a chance of getting off 3.

Altiris · 07/14/09, 8:21 AM

In that longer fight where you get 3, you would have gotten 2 in 3.1 for more mana. It then evens out when you get up to 4 innervates in 3.2. Right now it's not a full mana bar, so in 3.2 it won't be half a mana bar. It's 15732 if I remember correctly, and currently I am sitting at 23.7k mana raid buffed. Perhaps it wastes less mana this way, but it also usually grants less mana; I would rather get more and waste a little than get less and not have enough.

Edit: Actually, there's a short amount of time equal to the elapsed time before your first 3 minute innervate where you can get three 3 minute innervates but only one 6 minute innervate, but that and the corresponding time every 6 minutes thereafter are the only fight lengths for which it is a buff. For all other periods in the fight it is a nerf or no change to personal mana regen.

Poromu · 07/14/09, 10:27 AM

Fact is for the same ammount of mana gained through Innervate, you'll have doubled the gcd's used. It is a PvE nerf for us directly, but probably a PvE buff for classes we Innervate other than ourselves. The only thing I do appreciate is that I won't have to be stingy about an Innervate in a fight where I need mine, but not all of it.

I honestly don't think the new Eclipse rotation will make such a huge change to mana issues that i'll have to respec into Intensity. Sure wrath is less DPM than starfire, but a the critrate is the same when not under the effect of lunar eclipse. If you crit 6/12 Wraths vs 3/6 Starfires, the difference in mana gained over mana spent is hardly noticeable.

Edit: I must add that i'm really looking forward to having Eclipse back the way it was. (This is basically how it was on some of the first PTR builds before 3.0 came out at the end of BC.)

Ranghar · 07/14/09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Fact is for the same ammount of mana gained through Innervate, you'll have doubled the gcd's used.

Do you really think that there will be fights where you don't have a single spare GCD every 3 minutes? Patchwerk went the way of dodo.