On several events like accidental pulls or gaunlets where the tank isn't fast enough to pick them up, or even close enough while they are going straight for the healer. I aim the typhoon as immidiate reflex on them, they get knockbacked, the tank wakes up, i direct mobs away from healer & use shadowmeld. Works very smooth. Shadowmeld is my new best friend. Most people in my guild learned to appreciate typhoon when used at right timings.

As for raiding I go with this spec for 25 content: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Using MF, IS & SF glyph, 4xT7+2xT6, SF idol as gear setup.
My current favorite rotation at the moment goes as followed:
IS, MF, treants, starfall, wrath till eclipse, early eclipse, SF for eclipse duration, moonfire will run out a few seconds after eclipse went on cooldown, * refresh moonfire, get off 1-3 starfires to make moonfire longer, 1 sec before eclipse goes off cooldown, IS, wrath till eclipse, early eclipse, SF for eclipse duration, moonfire will run out during eclipse, refresh moonfire during eclipse, SF untill eclipse goes off cooldown, 1 sec before eclipse goes off cooldown, IS, wrath till eclipse, now you most likely will have to refresh moonfire while wrath untill eclipse proc, refresh moonfire, continue wrath till eclipse, early/medium eclipse, SF for eclipse duration, moonfire will run out after eclipse and before eclipse off cooldown, now you can go back to the *.

My crit is pretty good, but offcourse it still happens that eclipse procs very late or not even during moonfire duration. When that happens you ask yourselve should I start casting SF 3sec before moonfire runs out to get the extra 3,6,9 seconds from the glyph effect and probably end up with the wrath eclipse version. Or should i just keep spamming wrath and refesh moonfire and maybe even IS since eclipse hasn't procced yet. Well I'm not really sure, but mostly I adjust and make the best of the wrath eclipse & reform smoothly back to SF heavy rotation after. What do you guys think?

Sometimes I use more wrath heavy cycles with the wrath idol, and mostly do a bit more dps; if all goes well because its easier to fuck up in the wrath cycle. I think I do this most on movement heavy fights or mobs with short lifespan. I expressed my preference for SF heavy cycles some weeks ago allready, I must say I know accepted wrath as one of my main spells and even got more comfortable with it. But sometimes I just don't feel like click fast madness heavy cycles.

Does anyone throw 1 wrath at the beginning of a boss fight to proc Earth & Moon before they put up Moonfire / Insect swarm?
At the beginning of the fight, you wouldn't be interupting any rotation, as you haven't started one yet, and the +13% damage to moonfire especially seems worth it.


Edit: And to Druidark - I had a question about your 2 piece t6. I didn't crunch numbers or do many comparisons, but I found it intriguing that you use 2 piece t6 for 1 extra tick of moonfire. I was curious if the extra ticks makes up for the stat loss of the lower item level of the belt and bracers. Granted those two were both sunwell pieces, and since they have sockets they can scale with new gems, but it seems like the iLevel difference between 154 and 200/213 would be pretty significant.

I guess what I'm getting at, is is it worth the stat loss on all the rest of your casts, to gain 1 extra tick of moonfire?
Since your using it, I'm guessing you did find it worth it, but could you give a bit of insight into your thought process? Is it because of the rotation you use that you described, that it's saving dps loss by having it? Or the difference w/ gems is minor?

As for the 13% it depends, sometimes I start with a wrath but lately one of our Deathknight went unholy and takes care of the debuff while i start my rotation.
As for the 2xT6 bonus I am using the bracers+belt, the loss from 2 items isn't all that bad. The belt you can add a socket and put in 2x19sp & the bracer gets the best enchant & 19sp gem. Ofc other items can do that to and still win in item value. At the moment it feels much better to have an extra 3sec on the moonfire for smoothness of my cycle. And on a longer fight each moonfirecylce you gain 3sec on moonfire, you might wanna count them all together to see the real effect. For the time being I think I will stick with them untill something better comes along in Ulduar.
Using the rotation i described above I achieved 4.2k dps on patch (Wow Web Stats) , since last raid I replaced my blue weapon & my T6 head and gained some stats and about 200+sp, might also change my alchemy trink to a a crit one to make eclipse even more reliable. I hope to go over 4.5-4.6k wednsday on patch, I will post a wws after next reset.

I don't throw up wrath, reason being that the ticks from MF and IS will increase once u get wrath up there. A lot of bosses require some sort of movement, so a wrath and then moving = less time that you are actually dpsing

Most boss fights require moving at start or atleast some positioning. The time needed for this is very small, but its enough to throw off IS, MF for sure. On for example Sartharion I use treants, IS, MF, starfall, now I'm in position and casting my first wrath. Like I said before unholy Death Knights also put up the buff. Yes if E&M is up before your dots then those dots will tick for more. But moving in to position fast seems better to me. (considering overaggro for example on a pull, you can start off IS when tank tags the boss)

Adorieles point was that Earth and Moon is a debuff, not a buff, therefore whether the debuff is up when you put the dots on doesn't matter, as long as it's there before they tick. You can test this pretty easily on a test dummy - put up a dot, let it tick once, use Wrath to put up E+M, and you'll see the next tick gain 13% damage.

As an aside, E+M won't always be active when you put dots up if you start with Wrath anyway, depending on travel time/distance from the boss.

There was some talk about comparing the typical rotation with Twisting while + considering ICD of eclipse.
But did someone get chance to compare them?
I think the recommendation was:

IS -> MF -> 3 x SF -> Twist SF/W until Eclipse proc, during the eclipse use the buffed spell (W/SF). When eclipse is over, use SF until ICD of eclipse. When the ICD of eclipse is over, Twist SF/W.
And during this time keep IS+MF up.

Moonfire is always the highest damage spell you can cast, even during an eclipse, as long as you cast 3 starfires to extend the duration.

Quick napkin-math:

Moonfire: Taking ~1200 ticks (my average tick without trinkets), you get 9600 guarenteed tick damage + initial damage, as long as you extend the duration using 3 starfires with the glyph. 1.5 second cast time unmodified by haste, around 1.2 raid buffed. Effective damage of ~8k/sec of cast time.

Starfire: Currently crits for about 10-11k without trinket procs for me (around 15k with both up), even with eclipse active I don't have 100% crit rate (around 90%). Cast times of 2.5 second without NG, 2.0 with under raid buffs. Effective damage of ~5k/sec of cast time (or ~7.5k with trinket procs).

Insect swarm: For comparison, IS ticks for about 950 without trinket procs (including glyph and 2t7 bonus), which is ~6.5k damage for a 1.2 second cast time raid buffed, or ~5.5k/sec of cast time.

This is without counting the added 3% crit benefit of Moonfire if you have IIS. Due to haste interaction with the global cooldown (i.e effectively a ~1.1 second hard cap), IS is not worth casting under bloodlust (even with glyph, with 2t7), while Moonfire still is as long as you get 3 starfire casts off during the duration of it.

But the questions is not to skip a full duration moonfire, the question is should you skip two ticks to get an extra eclipse'd starfire in and put up a new moonfire after eclipse ends, most people think yes

Like the previous poster said, if it comes down to applying MF or getting out that last SF during an eclipse, go with the eclipse. If you can get out the MF and still have time for an eclipsed SF do that. Things like Heroism/haste pots will change the exact time of this, but for the most part it seems to be the common agreement.

It's not a perfect world, it is quite common to lose a couple of seconds on eclipse depending on reaction time + latency. Simply finish your cast, then switch to the proper spell, while renewing MF if needed. DPS is indeed less "reliable" because a wrath crit does not absolutely guarantee an eclipse proc. It's a gamble with RNG that can be reduced in time as better gear becomes available. The DPS gain is significant if you are properly geared, lucky enough and the encounter does not introduce mechanics that force you to waste time on eclipse procs. Wrath eclipse is probably more "reliable" but not necessarily optimal in terms of maximizing your damage output.