For rotations use Wrathcalc & base your own rotation upon its "Damage per Execute Time" table.
Pretty sure Hamlet knows that sort of thing =P The question has more to do with why most theorycrafting is showing a SF heavy rotation to be higher DPS, but Rawr is apparently telling him to use a Wrath-heavy one. I'm getting similar results, it'd be nice to know that it's a bug in Rawr's display, instead of the innards. On the other hand, I'm getting results (out of the blue, this happened without updating to a new version when it occurred) telling me to use crit over haste, when it had been previously telling me haste was better as expected.
It's almost like a ghost got into Rawr and started singing an old Weird Al song...
When you try out all aspects of the Boomkin as in 25man, 10man, 5man, grinding, duels, arena, pug/premade bg's; the need for mana really changes heavily. Class setup & size of the raid are the main factors.
I end up doing the same as Lordbeef, in 25man I don't use any regen talents, and even put the common 1 point from moonglow in genesis. The only fight where I can be oom in 25man is Sartharion 3D just before the end, dark runes solve that.
When we go down to 5man, 10man, premades; I take intensity 3/3, loads of spirit on my gear. Moonglow 3/3. Sometimes I also take the 1st point from dreamstate. But as healers suffer the same problem as I do, I end up innervating the healers a lot in 10mans. Which gets me in to trouble occasionally.
For duels, pugging bg's, arena; I take dreamstate 3/3, moonglow 3/3, intensity 1to3/3. Pvp gear has a lot less intellect, no spirit at all, and if you don't want to be drinking everytime you killed somebody you need all the mana you can get. I gemmed up for some more intellect with int+stam gems. Not every fight is short in pvp.
Perhaps we need to think more global for nerfing the 25man mana pools. Maybe lowering mana refunding effects by a small number. For example lowering the moonkin proc by 0,5%, and doing something simular for replenishments etc. Or make it so that players can't benefit from replenish/moonkin proc more then ever 3 seconds. There are many options, I wonder what it will be in the end. Because this can't go on if we increase stats even more in Ulduar.
With the holidays now past, I got sober and got in to a raid again.
Spec used Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Patchwork: Wow Web Stats
First raid without my 2xT6 bonus, was a bit of a cold shock, its incredible how much more comfortable & reliable the rotations/eclipse are with the extra 3 seconds from the bonus. Used my same rotation as i posted some time ago (wrath-starfire-starfire).
Eclipse didn't proc from wrath within my first moonfire dot (so no +9sec for my first moonfire), so with more luck I can squeeze out a bit more here next time. As far as I remember the rest of my rotations went fluently besides queueing starfire to early a few times. Ah yes, wasn't expecting us to hit the -3min achievement, so used treants on the pull and not while heroism. I hope to get somewhat higher before Ulduar is released.
For talent spec I don't take brambles, when i tried brambles treants never were more then 6% of my dps(roughly 4-5% without brambles). In the end its only +15% damage to your treants(3talent points...), for 0-29sec every 3minutes. Improved thorns is nice for the tanks sure, but not worth it for me in wotlk. Im with Dukes, can't live without typhoon, basicly not without gale winds either. For me it just feels to wrong not to have them.
@Druidark -> 3/3 Owlkin Frenzy but no Imp. FF? General aggrement is that a feral using FF does provide you with 3% crit.
I do find it to be very rare that eclipse doesnt proc before Moonfire runs out so wouldnt worry too much about that.
You could use IS more, when comparing to my last Patchwerk also 2.57 kill I have 55 IS ticks vs your 35 - Math does support applying IS alot, at the very least any time Eclipse aint active.
As you state, optimal usage of our lovely trees helps quite alot (Teaching your prot warrior to do a battle shout when heroism comes is golden).
Dont be too dissapointed if your dps doesnt skyrocket next week, your crit % on Starfire seems quite abit above expected values.
Ooh, somewhere before the holidays (when I was last reading in here) it was not confirmed it actually added to my crit, very nice. If I remember correctly I have near 34% crit with starfire from gear & talents with non-combat buffs from raid. So iFF will be another 3% then <3. I use IS before wrath to proc eclipse allways, but I only refreshed moonfire when eclipse didn't proc within first moonfire dot, I never refresh IS. I will try out refreshing IS if eclipse hasn't procced yet.
Yeah I won't climb up much from now, just some gear & my weapon to upgrade a few iLevels. I will need to give more cookies to our dps warrior for a BS after heroism. Maybe our elemental shaman will tag along next time aswell.
ps: hug zalgradis for me, one of the few persons worth remembering from those hundreds of pug bg's.
I actually messed up a few times and landed a starfire that happened 2 crit right as my eclipse was coming off cooldown, happened 2x I believe, but I just used the wrath eclipses, i keep moonfire up the whole fight, during everything no matter whats proc'd or heroism, only refresh IS inbetween eclipse procs and never during hero, I might try during hero next week, but I doubt it's worth it
is-mf-wrath till eclipse and starfire spamming on eclipse cooldown
I have few questions concerning moonkin dps rotation I use which is IS,MF,W untill eclipse, SF during eclipse and during internal CD of eclipse while refreshing dots.
1. When Im trying to proc eclipse with my IS and MF rolling and theres something like 3 secs left in MF, should I switch to SF to refresh MF even if eclipse hasnt procced risking a wrong eclipse proc or should I just let MF wear out and refresh it then?
2. Also if the correct method is to refresh MF with SF and eclipse procs, should I immediately switch to W spam or cast 3 SF to refresh MF by 9secs no matter what?
3. So far I have refreshed MF and IS during eclipse if they fell off when theres atleast 10secs left in eclipse. Has anyone calculated the point where you still should refresh dots during eclipse?
4. Even if we dont like wrath eclipses those sometimes happen. Should we refresh dots during W eclipses and what is the point where you should still refresh them?
As a little offtopic I´d like to throw an interesting question. When wrath eclipse becomes better than starfire eclipse?
Obviously at Loatheb Wrath eclipse is better because atleast with my current gear and fungus buff my SF crit% is about 135% while W crit% is something like 105%. Loatheb is an extreme situation when W eclipse is strictly better than SF, but could W eclipse be better even with lower crit levels say 60-70%?
1. When Im trying to proc eclipse with my IS and MF rolling and theres something like 3 secs left in MF, should I switch to SF to refresh MF even if eclipse hasnt procced risking a wrong eclipse proc or should I just let MF wear out and refresh it then?
2. Also if the correct method is to refresh MF with SF and eclipse procs, should I immediately switch to W spam or cast 3 SF to refresh MF by 9secs no matter what?
3. So far I have refreshed MF and IS during eclipse if they fell off when theres atleast 10secs left in eclipse. Has anyone calculated the point where you still should refresh dots during eclipse?
4. Even if we dont like wrath eclipses those sometimes happen. Should we refresh dots during W eclipses and what is the point where you should still refresh them?
As a little offtopic I´d like to throw an interesting question. When wrath eclipse becomes better than starfire eclipse?
Obviously at Loatheb Wrath eclipse is better because atleast with my current gear and fungus buff my SF crit% is about 135% while W crit% is something like 105%. Loatheb is an extreme situation when W eclipse is strictly better than SF, but could W eclipse be better even with lower crit levels say 60-70%?
I won't answer first 2 question since I have some doubts myself of what is better approach.
3. Personally I am considering refreshing MF at the early stage of lunar eclipse a good move - I tried not to but it often ended up with rather low MF uptime in general. Refreshing IS on the other hand isn't really worth it.
4. I think refreshing DoTs during wrath eclipse is a good way to go
As for wrath vs SF eclipse - I don't think wrath is better in any normal situation. I mean Loatheb is very specific when it comes to crit so obviously 15% doesn't make a difference but besides this fight you rather won't have so much crit that would make SF eclipse worse than wrath.
I have few questions concerning moonkin dps rotation I use which is IS,MF,W untill eclipse, SF during eclipse and during internal CD of eclipse while refreshing dots.
1. When Im trying to proc eclipse with my IS and MF rolling and theres something like 3 secs left in MF, should I switch to SF to refresh MF even if eclipse hasnt procced risking a wrong eclipse proc or should I just let MF wear out and refresh it then?
2. Also if the correct method is to refresh MF with SF and eclipse procs, should I immediately switch to W spam or cast 3 SF to refresh MF by 9secs no matter what?
As a little offtopic I´d like to throw an interesting question. When wrath eclipse becomes better than starfire eclipse?
Obviously at Loatheb Wrath eclipse is better because atleast with my current gear and fungus buff my SF crit% is about 135% while W crit% is something like 105%. Loatheb is an extreme situation when W eclipse is strictly better than SF, but could W eclipse be better even with lower crit levels say 60-70%?
I'll answer these, then. First, it's a math issue for question 1. What do you lose in each case? If you don't swap to SF to extend Moonfire, you lose 3 ticks. If you do, you possibly (probably, since MF is up) have to deal with the difference between a Starfire eclipse and a Wrath one. In end T725 gear, 3 ticks of Moonfire is ~3.5k damage. The difference between SF and W Eclipse is ~15k damage. Let the Moonfire drop, and refresh it. This also answers the second question.
As to the interesting question at the end, Starfire scales better than Wrath in almost every case, Loatheb being the noticeable difference, because you're capped at 100% crit, but there's no cap on %damage done. Wrath Eclipse MAY be better at some point, but it's on the low end of gear, not the high end.
As a little offtopic I´d like to throw an interesting question. When wrath eclipse becomes better than starfire eclipse?
Obviously at Loatheb Wrath eclipse is better because atleast with my current gear and fungus buff my SF crit% is about 135% while W crit% is something like 105%. Loatheb is an extreme situation when W eclipse is strictly better than SF, but could W eclipse be better even with lower crit levels say 60-70%?
I don't think W eclipse is better anywhere. With a little haste u get GCD problems because of Nature's Grace. At least thats the problem i run in to. Anyone who disagrees ?
Pretty sure Hamlet knows that sort of thing =P The question has more to do with why most theorycrafting is showing a SF heavy rotation to be higher DPS, but Rawr is apparently telling him to use a Wrath-heavy one. I'm getting similar results, it'd be nice to know that it's a bug in Rawr's display, instead of the innards. On the other hand, I'm getting results (out of the blue, this happened without updating to a new version when it occurred) telling me to use crit over haste, when it had been previously telling me haste was better as expected.
It's almost like a ghost got into Rawr and started singing an old Weird Al song...
I do think there's some sort of creeping bug in the internals that I haven't tracked down yet, unfortunately. I think the most likely solution to this problem is to dedicate a lot of time and effort to a complete overhaul of the cast-sequence calculator to make it better reflect real cast sequences. This means that you probably won't see any updates to Rawr.Moonkin for a while, but when the update does come, it should be significantly improved.
I don't think W eclipse is better anywhere. With a little haste u get GCD problems because of Nature's Grace. At least thats the problem i run in to. Anyone who disagrees ?
I disagree. At Loatheb my average wrath crit was 7561 and its 1s cast with natures grace. My average starfire crit at Loatheb was 11191 and its aprox 2s cast with natures grace.
Its not hard to count from there that wrath eclipses are superior at Loatheb. I even dare to say that wrath eclipse is better at lower crit levels as well. The question is at which level wrath eclipse becomes better?
Lets do a bit of math.
1. A druid has 60% crit and his average wrath hits for 2400
2. A druid has 60% crit and his average SF hits for 4426
3. Lets assume that with natures grace SF cast is 2.13s and W cast is 1s.
I got the average damages by shooting 100 noncrit spells of wrath and SF to heroic training dummy without using proc trinkets or idol.
We are spamming 100 spells of each
100 spells of eclipsed wrath: 100*1.6*(2400*1.2)/(40*1.31s+60*1s) = 460800dmg/112.4s = 4099,6dps
100 spells of eclipsed SF dmg: 100*1.9*4426/(90*2.13s+10*2.63) = 840940dmg/218s = 3857,5dps
So with 60% crit and the above damage and haste values wrath eclipse wins by aprox 250dps!
60% crit is quite reasonable raid buffed with best gear currently available
Average damage values for SF and W would be a lot higher in raid environment.
Haste values are somewhat accurate and reflects raid values.
Things to test:
1. I havent tested how different Idols effect the outcome
2. I dont know how spellpower scales with wrath and sf so I used my unbuffed values for determining SF/W average damage instead of reasonable raid values. (I had exactly 2000 spellpower when I spanked the dummy).
3. This is theory. I dont know how lag effects on 1s wrath casts vs 2.13s SF casts.
I disagree. At Loatheb my average wrath crit was 7561 and its 1s cast with natures grace. My average starfire crit at Loatheb was 11191 and its aprox 2s cast with natures grace.
Its not hard to count from there that wrath eclipses are superior at Loatheb. I even dare to say that wrath eclipse is better at lower crit levels as well. The question is at which level wrath eclipse becomes better?
Lets do a bit of math.
1. A druid has 60% crit and his average wrath hits for 2400
2. A druid has 60% crit and his average SF hits for 4426
3. Lets assume that with natures grace SF cast is 2.13s and W cast is 1s.
I got the average damages by shooting 100 noncrit spells of wrath and SF to heroic training dummy without using proc trinkets or idol.
We are spamming 100 spells of each
100 spells of eclipsed wrath: 100*1.6*(2400*1.2)/(40*1.31s+60*1s) = 460800dmg/112.4s = 4099,6dps
100 spells of eclipsed SF dmg: 100*1.9*4426/(90*2.13s+10*2.63) = 840940dmg/218s = 3857,5dps
So with 60% crit and the above damage and haste values wrath eclipse wins by aprox 250dps!
60% crit is quite reasonable raid buffed with best gear currently available
Average damage values for SF and W would be a lot higher in raid environment.
Haste values are somewhat accurate and reflects raid values.
Things to test:
1. I havent tested how different Idols effect the outcome
2. I dont know how spellpower scales with wrath and sf so I used my unbuffed values for determining SF/W average damage instead of reasonable raid values. (I had exactly 2000 spellpower when I spanked the dummy).
3. This is theory. I dont know how lag effects on 1s wrath casts vs 2.13s SF casts.
You will never see 1s Wrath casts. You'll see 1+x, where X is your latency, including ping and reaction time. Second, if your NG'd Starfires are 2.13s, your non-NG'd Starfires are going to be less than 2.63s. NG comes before haste, so with any haste, the benefit of NG is lower. It's best to count NG as 20% haste, multiplicative, for SF.
Wrath eclipse is better on Loatheb if you're going to go past 100% crit on SF with Eclipse. Otherwise, SF eclipse should win except at low gear levels.
Heya.
Been using the MF/IS/Wrath to Eclipse then Starfire since i started raiding at 80 and it works pretty well but im starting to wonder if i should change this now?
Today i got 3 new items and it seems that its a waste to use Wrath as much as i do, even more so with my new items.
Overall it looks good but there are plenty of occasions i am low or really low on the list, is it me or are the others overpowered? ^^
One last thing, i can afford the T7.5 shoulders, should i get them even if they are a minor upgrade or save 15 more badges and buy the legs instead which is a bigger upgrade?
Any way i finally get the 4 piece set bonus that i really want.
Does Starfall benefit from the Starfire Eclipse proc, and, if so, is it worth the global cooldown it costs to cast?
Read the tooltip (Ill be nice & give you a hint : increasing your critical strike chance with starfire)
@lillbrorsan - Look abit in the other moonkin threads for suggestions on what gear to go for. From 25man badges there are 2useful items if you ask me. The spirit+haste ring & T7 shoulders - I would grab T7 shoulders now as the 4piece bonus helps alot, there are better leggings to use than T7.
i have not yet come to the point where i really needed to cast from 36 yards range
That threat reduction is very needed, 30% threat reduction is crazy when you begin to raid, if you are critting EVERY eclipse when you use your starfire (And I mean when starfire eclipse is proc'd from wrath spamming crits) That will come out as ALOT of threat without that reduction.
Originally Posted by tr33hugger
but it's far more destructive if you run out of mana.
Not necessarily, i have 23% crit chance and i almost NEVER go oom (level 80), but i do have a few spirit, although when i do go oom it's when the mana intensive fights occur (A.e. Patchwerks, crashing out on spamming wrath hurts since it's 60% and not 100%, and of course, KT, that first part when you are trying to kill the inc. skeletons is a pain since I am used to wrathing them, and I would cast it, and a hunter comes up and 1 shots it with his auto shot, leaving me with 349 mana gone from my pool.), but if you are really having problems on mana and you NEED replenish then you need a bigger mana pool, my crits suffice mine, and I do occasionally innervate myself, mostly use pots since healers need it > me.
Originally Posted by tr33hugger
This is my current built. Still thinking about going imp FF instead of IS, gonna have to work that out.
The build is alright, but gale's winds is WORTHLESS for raiding, since you don't have typhoon and you will 1/10000 times use hurricane, MAYBE, but mostly only because of the plague side. I see no point in it and you should throw the other 2 into the nature's reach.
Originally Posted by Druidark
Small detail, I allways cast Insect Swarm first, then Moonfire. Gives me a little more time to get Eclipse procced within the Moonfire dot period.
Good plan, but the initial damage of the moonfire's first hit does more dps > insect swarms first tick (Since it doesn't go off right when you hit it), and if your rolling with the moonfire glyph then you would want moonfire first, since it would do about 400 more damage than insect swarm (for me on the ticks). I understand you want the moonfire to last for the eclipse, but since the starfire glyph nerf, i'd say just remoonfire once eclipse procs, it's 13.5 seconds of eclipse instead of 15, but you get all that damage from moonfire and the crit chance from it, instead of running out of moonfire with 3 seconds left on eclipse and you not being able to pull the last one off.
Don't come in here to post that gale winds is "WORTHLESS" as if it's some sort of definitive statement of truth.
We've had this debate, and gale winds is a raid dps increase and is useful on most of the difficult encounters.
I agree with this completely, I can tell by the guys gear who stated gale winds is worthless that the only raiding he does is pug pickup naxx's and such
take a fight like multiple drake sarth for example, many occassions during that fight you cast hurricane, and any extra dmg on an ability has some use in raiding, saying the talent is worthless is ignorant, grats on that
Quite interesting solution But tell me then, what do you use for most effective zombie "catch"? Moonfire for sure would agro them fast but my owl experience tells me that spamming it no matter for what reason is very harsh for mana.
In fact, I use a MF + IS to catch them. The healers in almost all cases get aggro before I do, so my threat has to overcome the 130% mark. I found that applying both dots is necessary to ensure that.
The positive side effect of this "dot and forget" tactic is that I ping-pong the zombies: First they move to the raid, and after 4-7 seconds, they decide to come for me. This gives me some time to move the big group following me into the right position so the additional zombies join them.
As for mana: I've never had problems there. Even putting MF + IS on every zombie, and using Typhoon to get some distance (not on every cooldown though), and using Hurricane after Decimate. I innervate myself, and that's enough.
I agree with this completely, I can tell by the guys gear who stated gale winds is worthless that the only raiding he does is pug pickup naxx's and such
take a fight like multiple drake sarth for example, many occassions during that fight you cast hurricane, and any extra dmg on an ability has some use in raiding, saying the talent is worthless is ignorant, grats on that
100% with you on this, as soon as Vesperon is down we AE the whelps before bothering to take any portals, and then throughout the fight at certain intervals we AE again. Not to mention that ecery trash pull is an AoE pull.
On another note....
Good plan, but the initial damage of the moonfire's first hit does more dps > insect swarms first tick (Since it doesn't go off right when you hit it), and if your rolling with the moonfire glyph then you would want moonfire first, since it would do about 400 more damage than insect swarm (for me on the ticks). I understand you want the moonfire to last for the eclipse, but since the starfire glyph nerf, i'd say just remoonfire once eclipse procs, it's 13.5 seconds of eclipse instead of 15, but you get all that damage from moonfire and the crit chance from it, instead of running out of moonfire with 3 seconds left on eclipse and you not being able to pull the last one off.
I am fairly certain it has been mentioned that clipping your DoTs is a bad thing, and casting IS first then MF to make sure you get an eclipse proc without wasting a GCD is much more of a DPS increase than casting MF and trying to reapply it later.
If I were to pick up gale winds, what would I switch out? The World of Warcraft Armory, I can't find anything viable to switch out for the two points and the reason I was saying that 80% was because the guy didn't have typhoon. And if i am to switch into gale winds, I'd most likely pick up typhoon but I still can't see anything I would pull 3 points out for those 3 talents.
01/08/09, 6:55 PM
But tell me then, what do you use for most effective zombie "catch"? Moonfire for sure would agro them fast but my owl experience tells me that spamming it no matter for what reason is very harsh for mana.
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