Moonkin Raiding - Page 121

Altiris · 07/24/09, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by chalid

I know this issue is some days old, but the bonus of eclipse wrath is somewhat smaller as the multiplier is additive to the 10 % given by moonfury.

So without 2T8 its (1.1+0.3) / 1.1 which is actually only a 27.2% increase above your normal (moonfury powered) wrathes.
With 2t8 it gets up to (1.1+0.45)/1.1 which is a 40.9% increase over your normal wrathes.

Is it actually additive? I have always assumed that most talents are multiplicative.

• Hamlet · 07/24/09, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by chalid

I know this issue is some days old, but the bonus of eclipse wrath is somewhat smaller as the multiplier is additive to the 10 % given by moonfury.

So without 2T8 its (1.1+0.3) / 1.1 which is actually only a 27.2% increase above your normal (moonfury powered) wrathes.
With 2t8 it gets up to (1.1+0.45)/1.1 which is a 40.9% increase over your normal wrathes.

Can you provide a test? I can see how it being additive would be consistent with the way that many other +damage bonuses behave, but I'd like to be sure. We'd have to update some theorycraft.

Erdluf · 07/25/09, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Can you provide a test? I can see how it being additive would be consistent with the way that many other +damage bonuses behave, but I'd like to be sure. We'd have to update some theorycraft.

Test results, that at the time I thought meant Wrath Eclipse was additive.

From Wrathcalcs thread

I need to re-crunch the numbers (at the time I didn''t realize untalented Wrath gains some damage going from 79 to 80, so ignore the first bit about Moonfury), but I'm pretty sure the Eclipse conclusion stands.

Starfox · 07/25/09, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Can you provide a test? I can see how it being additive would be consistent with the way that many other +damage bonuses behave, but I'd like to be sure. We'd have to update some theorycraft.

Unequiped items with procs/stacks. SF the heroic target dummy, on crit hit every normal target dummy with one eclipsed wrath, os no E&M debuff

SP: 2176
WrathCoeff: 2/3.5+0.1 = 0.671
BaseDmg80: 557 - 627

DamageRange: 2286 - 2365  [(557 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.1*1.03 - (627 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.1*1.03]
Eclipse+:  3221 - 3333  [(557 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.55*1.03 - (627 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.55*1.03]
Eclipse*:  3315 - 3430  [(557 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.1*1.45*1.03 - (627 +2176*(2/3.5+0.1) )*1.1*1.45*1.03]

07:22:15> [Megalon's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 8447 Arcane.(894 Resisted) *
07:22:16> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Eclipse.
07:22:16> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon is refreshed on [Heroic Training Dummy].
07:22:17> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace is refreshed on [Megalon].
07:22:17> [Megalon's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 8492 Arcane.(899 Resisted) *
07:22:18> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon is refreshed on [Heroic Training Dummy].
07:22:19> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3331 Overkill)
07:22:20> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
07:22:20> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3319 Overkill)
07:22:20> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
07:22:20> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace fades from [Megalon].
07:22:20> [Megalon's] Hyperspeed Acceleration fades from [Megalon].
07:22:21> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3254 Overkill) <<<
07:22:22> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
07:22:23> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3256 Overkill)
07:22:23> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
07:22:30> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Heroic Training Dummy].
07:22:31> [Megalon's] Eclipse fades from [Megalon].
07:22:31> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Expert's Training Dummy].
07:22:32> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Expert's Training Dummy].
07:22:34> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Master's Training Dummy].
07:22:35> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Master's Training Dummy].

As you can see the lowest hit was 3255 damage, which is to low for Moonfury and Eclipse being multiplicative.
Btw: The tooltip itself also updates when Eclipse procs, and it states 972 max damage. 627 * 1.55 = 971.85

Tschuki · 07/25/09, 8:09 AM

Hey folks,

first of all, this site and its members have helped me a lot throughout my years of WoW

Thx 4 this!

There weren't any questions a thread couldn't answer up until now.

I am playing a Moonkin Druid on Azshara, Germany
Here my questions:

1.) How much DPS is the 4T8 worth? Since WrathCalc doesn't account for it and my actual gear choice depends on it
2.) Is there any possibility to teach Rawr some "Rules" to optimize the EQ? (Get to 263 Hit, then get to 400 Haste, then put all in Crit 4 3.2)

Another question, which should be clear, but I am asking anyways:
Right now, it is best to stack Haste as much as possible, right? I got pretty much +crit gear for patch 3.2 but until then, Haste is king?

Thx for your time!
.tschuki

Tronn · 07/25/09, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tschuki

Another question, which should be clear, but I am asking anyways:
Right now, it is best to stack Haste as much as possible, right? I got pretty much +crit gear for patch 3.2 but until then, Haste is king?

As far as I can see from some testing with WrathCalc, Haste is the best stat in any given situation, even with Bloodlust 100% uptime. And what do you think is going to be changed in 3.2 regarding Crit? I must have missed that. Unfortunately, I can't help you with 1. and 2.

Eilt · 07/25/09, 11:46 AM

Tronn, in 3.2 we will be using solar and lunar exlipses back to back. Once you hit 400 haste with NG up Wrath is already hitting the GCD on cast time, so stacking it beyond this point will lead to GCD clipping and loss of the pre-queue system, which leads to lost DPS.

Once at about 400 haste it may turn out that stacking crit fromt his point on will be the way to go, obviously the patch is not out yet so no telling what they may change. But from preliminary tests it appears to be the case.

Himtaurgar · 07/25/09, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Eilt

Once you hit 400 haste with NG up Wrath is already hitting the GCD on cast time, so stacking it beyond this point will lead to GCD clipping and loss of the pre-queue system, which leads to lost DPS.

Did anyone ever confirm this? I'd like to see large data set of wrath casts proving this shift from queue to no queue cast times. It'd also be good to see if this alleged shift is affected by latency, computer goodness, or player reaction time.

• Hamlet · 07/26/09, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

As you can see the lowest hit was 3255 damage, which is to low for Moonfury and Eclipse being multiplicative.
Btw: The tooltip itself also updates when Eclipse procs, and it states 972 max damage. 627 * 1.55 = 971.85

Ugh, have to update WC. Funny how I've been overestimating Solar all this time and still never liked it.

Originally Posted by Eilt

Tronn, in 3.2 we will be using solar and lunar exlipses back to back. Once you hit 400 haste with NG up Wrath is already hitting the GCD on cast time, so stacking it beyond this point will lead to GCD clipping and loss of the pre-queue system, which leads to lost DPS.

Once at about 400 haste it may turn out that stacking crit fromt his point on will be the way to go, obviously the patch is not out yet so no telling what they may change. But from preliminary tests it appears to be the case.

Based on WC, I'm seeing haste as very strong (roughly equal to spellpower) up to 400, and still a good stat after that--slightly weaker than crit in 3.2.

Originally Posted by Himtaurgar

Did anyone ever confirm this? I'd like to see large data set of wrath casts proving this shift from queue to no queue cast times. It'd also be good to see if this alleged shift is affected by latency, computer goodness, or player reaction time.

It's not about queue to no-queue cast times--400 haste is simply when the GCD hits 1s so you can't get any faster. Wrath at any level of haste benefits from queueing in a very limited way since the GCD and cast time are equal. If your latency increases during a cast, you're going to lose some time because the client-side GCD prevents you from sending a cast command early enough to queue.

• Hamlet · 07/26/09, 1:58 AM

Also, I'll tentatively assume IIS is also additive? Has anyone tested that as well?

Starfox · 07/27/09, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Also, I'll tentatively assume IIS is also additive? Has anyone tested that as well?

Repsecced: No E&M
Additive

local w_base_min = 557;
local w_base_max = 627;
local w_sp_part = 2176*(2/3.5+0.1);
local w_dmg_min = (w_base_min +w_sp_part)*1.58;
local w_dmg_max = (w_base_max +w_sp_part)*1.58;
print("IIS+",w_dmg_min, w_dmg_max);
w_dmg_min = (w_base_min +w_sp_part)*1.55*1.03;
w_dmg_max = (w_base_max +w_sp_part)*1.55*1.03;
print("IIS*",w_dmg_min, w_dmg_max);
#Leads to:
IIS+:3188.x - 3299.x
IIS*:3221.x - 3333.x

So, trying to get hit > 3299 or < 3221. Deleted the IS ticks for convenience

05:16:03> [Megalon's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 8774 Arcane.*
05:16:04> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Eclipse.
05:16:05> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Insect Swarm.
05:16:06> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace fades from [Megalon].
05:16:08> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Insect Swarm.
05:16:08> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3258 Overkill)
05:16:11> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Insect Swarm.
05:16:11> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3235 Overkill)
05:16:11> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Clearcasting.
05:16:13> [Megalon's] Clearcasting fades from [Megalon].
05:16:14> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Insect Swarm.
05:16:14> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3328 Overkill) <<<<<<<<
05:16:18> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3292 Overkill)

The marked hit is only possible if IIS is multiplicative with eclipse+moonfury.

Test: Eclipse+Moonfury and how the 3% from E&M is incorporated (w/o IS), so the same numbers as above for the borders

05:25:53> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Nature's Grace.
05:25:53> [Megalon's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 8395 Arcane.(446 Resisted) *
05:25:54> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Eclipse.
05:25:54> [Heroic Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:25:56> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace fades from [Megalon].
05:25:56> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3310 Overkill)<<<<<<<<
05:25:57> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:25:57> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Nature's Grace.
05:25:58> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(6846 Overkill) *
05:25:58> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:25:58> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace is refreshed on [Megalon].
05:25:59> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(6739 Overkill) *
05:26:00> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:26:01> [Megalon's] Hyperspeed Acceleration fades from [Megalon].
05:26:01> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace fades from [Megalon].
05:26:02> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3220 Overkill)
05:26:02> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:26:05> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Heroic Training Dummy].
05:26:09> [Megalon's] Eclipse fades from [Megalon].
#3310 seemed a bit close, so another try to try and get a greater gap to 3299.x
05:28:01> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Nature's Grace.
05:28:01> [Megalon's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 8169 Arcane.(434 Resisted) *
05:28:02> [Megalon] gains [Megalon's] Eclipse.
05:28:02> [Heroic Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:28:04> [Megalon's] Nature's Grace fades from [Megalon].
05:28:05> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3288 Overkill)
05:28:05> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:28:06> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Expert's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3256 Overkill)
05:28:06> [Expert's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:28:07> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3324 Overkill) <<<<<
05:28:08> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:28:09> [Megalon's] Hyperspeed Acceleration fades from [Megalon].
05:28:09> [Megalon's] Wrath hits [Master's Training Dummy] for 1 Nature.(3248 Overkill)
05:28:10> [Master's Training Dummy] is afflicted by [Megalon's] Earth and Moon.
05:28:14> [Megalon's] Earth and Moon dissipates from [Heroic Training Dummy].
05:28:17> [Megalon's] Eclipse fades from [Megalon].

3311 and 3324, so E&M is multiplicative.

So it is (Eclipse + Moonfury) * IIS * E&M with talents

• Hamlet · 07/27/09, 11:46 PM

Thanks. Remember that we'll have to test 4T9 at some point. Although I should start having more time again soon.

jtalaimo · 07/28/09, 2:38 PM

Couple Questions for raiding Moonkins -

1) Someone point me into a BIS list of somesort without using graylo, like to see other people's opinions on gear selection.

2) I use a Lunar Eclipse and I've been fearing very well dpsing with the meters, however just to be sure, it is correct to re insert IS during an eclipse correct? I seem to only do it if i have 75% of it left but I'm wondering in terms of later.

3) I keep hearing and wondering about the starfall glyph over the moonfire glpyh.... so tempting?

4)This is my biggest question cuz it involved more math then the others. ok so I use lunar, I tend to keep buff my own haste to right around 500. I use a haste food but then use SP flask. I used to go both haste but I stopped at 500. Due to raid buffs obviously it'll be way higher just self buffed i'm at 500. I know SP > haste, so I'm wondering if i should cut out my haste all together and go straight up SP, or all hate? or do what i'm doing now? Personally I like being around 500 and than working as much SP from there that I can.

I'm in 2 piece t8, with 3 piece t7.5 and i'mbeating people in full conq. Not that matters cuz obviously there skill level is lower. Any advicse is greatly appreciated :P

• Hamlet · 07/28/09, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by jtalaimo

Couple Questions for raiding Moonkins -

1) Someone point me into a BIS list of somesort without using graylo, like to see other people's opinions on gear selection.

2) I use a Lunar Eclipse and I've been fearing very well dpsing with the meters, however just to be sure, it is correct to re insert IS during an eclipse correct? I seem to only do it if i have 75% of it left but I'm wondering in terms of later.

3) I keep hearing and wondering about the starfall glyph over the moonfire glpyh.... so tempting?

4)This is my biggest question cuz it involved more math then the others. ok so I use lunar, I tend to keep buff my own haste to right around 500. I use a haste food but then use SP flask. I used to go both haste but I stopped at 500. Due to raid buffs obviously it'll be way higher just self buffed i'm at 500. I know SP > haste, so I'm wondering if i should cut out my haste all together and go straight up SP, or all hate? or do what i'm doing now? Personally I like being around 500 and than working as much SP from there that I can.

I'm in 2 piece t8, with 3 piece t7.5 and i'mbeating people in full conq. Not that matters cuz obviously there skill level is lower. Any advicse is greatly appreciated :P

1) BiS lists aren't currently a worthwhile endeavor due to the presence of rare hardmode and Algalon loot. Any dream set will be full of such items, but no individual player can have any reasonable expectation of acquiring all of them. You have to take the 239's that you're lucky enough to get, and then fit your other gear around them to meet set bonus and hit cap requirements.

2) Modeling this is tricky and it's very close comparison to begin with. I typically refresh DoT's in the first half of an Eclipse.

3) I don't see the attraction of the Starfall Glyph. Once 3.2 hits and Moonfire is much stronger due to 2T9, it will be even harder to give up the Starfire or Moonfire Glyph. The only situation I'd really use it is if I were dropping the IS Glyph for raid utility reasons.

4) Gems/food/Flask should be spellpower above the 400 haste mark. But it's perfectly normal to have upwards of 500 haste from gear alone; in fact, that will generally happen in a strong gear setup.

jtalaimo · 07/28/09, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

1) BiS lists aren't currently a worthwhile endeavor due to the presence of rare hardmode and Algalon loot. Any dream set will be full of such items, but no individual player can have any reasonable expectation of acquiring all of them. You have to take the 239's that you're lucky enough to get, and then fit your other gear around them to meet set bonus and hit cap requirements.

2) Modeling this is tricky and it's very close comparison to begin with. I typically refresh DoT's in the first half of an Eclipse.

3) I don't see the attraction of the Starfall Glyph. Once 3.2 hits and Moonfire is much stronger due to 2T9, it will be even harder to give up the Starfire or Moonfire Glyph. The only situation I'd really use it is if I were dropping the IS Glyph for raid utility reasons.

4) Gems/food/Flask should be spellpower above the 400 haste mark. But it's perfectly normal to have upwards of 500 haste from gear alone; in fact, that will generally happen in a strong gear setup.

1) Well I am switching about different pieces in and out at all times, and tbh, I don't know what is better. Like for instance, the crafted boots; the cloth ones or leather ones? which is better? I currently don't have any idea

.

2) Yeah I figured it was tricky? You use 50%? I will start as well thanks!

3) I agree, I don't think about 3.2 until it happens yah know? All I care about atm is how to increase my dps the highest until 3.2. When that happens, obviously much is going to change.

4) So your saying stick to ALL sp, so even self buffed I'd sit at 450ish self buffed with haste? Rather than eating haste food and sit at 500? I was debating that and know that SP> haste, just had a self motivation to keep it at 500 self buffed :P

I really do appreciate your quick reply!