Moonkin Raiding - Page 127

shibbytastic · 08/11/09, 12:28 PM

I've been attempting to figure out when it is worth my time to refresh dots during eclipse given the new rotation.

Assumptions:
Nature's Grace is up during Eclipse.
It is always worth refreshing dots if eclipse is not up.
Dots are better DPET than Nukes

Methods:
I calculated the expected damage for a single wrath and a single starfire (Damage+ Damage*%Crit*(CritModifier-1)).
I then calculated the expected damage for a single cast of both spells during a normal eclipse and during a 2t8 eclipse.
I calculated my global cooldown given the amount of haste i am running with.
I took the value of eclipse buffed wraths and starfires and subtracted out value of unbuffed wraths and starfires. I called this number damage gained from eclipse (Dwe, Dse)
I normalized this damage against my DOT global cooldown to get the amount of buffed damage lost during dot casts.
( De*DOTct/Nukect)
I took the value of dot tics for both IS and moonfire from a recent world of logs parse.
Finally I calculated how many dot tics it would take to make up for the lost eclipse bonus damage during dot casts.

Conclusions:
at my gear level
with the 2t8 bonus: refresh IS (glyphed) if it falls off with more than 3 seconds remaining
refresh Moonfire if it falls off with more than 5 seconds remaining

without the 2t8 bonus: refresh IS (glyphed) if it falls off with more than 2 seconds remaining
refresh Moonfire if it falls off with more than 3 seconds remaining

Known Errors:
I did not use improved insect swarm in my analysis.
I did not run my numbers using 4t8 or any t9.

Szynszyla · 08/11/09, 1:55 PM

That should be only correct if you would reaply dots during eclipse. Problem comes when you refresh dots outside of eclipse cousing the next eclipse to be likely postponed by the time you renew dots.

shibbytastic · 08/11/09, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Szynszyla

That should be only correct if you would reaply dots during eclipse. Problem comes when you refresh dots outside of eclipse cousing the next eclipse to be likely postponed by the time you renew dots.

I was wondering where you were coming from with this until I looked at the other moonkin thread. I'm looking forward to trying out that macro tonight.

I just reviewed my assumptions from my previous post and have decided that until you have 2t9 refreshing moonfire during a solar eclipse is a dps loss due to unrefreshed moonfire having a lower dpet than eclipsed wrath.

Szynszyla · 08/11/09, 4:16 PM

Maybe i wasn't clear on my post above.

What happens with your eclipse calculations when this happen.

After Solar wrath ends, you want to keep spaming wrath to go into lunar. If you refresh 2 dots while waiting for lunar that means 2 possible wasted wrath casts that might grant you eclipse.

Same thing can happen with Lunar into Solar but the risk of it is much lower but if it happens, it lowers overall % of eclipse uptime time aswell. Any of these 2 don't matter that much, couse from what RAWR tells me, both eclipses with 2pT8 have the same DPS.

I hope all this DoT headacke will end soon when someone comes with some sort of simulations.

Huskar · 08/11/09, 5:32 PM

I agree with Szynszyla.

Originally Posted by shibbytastic

I've been attempting to figure out when it is worth my time to refresh dots during eclipse given the new rotation.

Assumptions:...

...It is always worth refreshing dots if eclipse is not up.
Dots are better DPET than Nukes

I would love to see some post-3.2 math on these assumptions. The thing is, with every dot you cast outside of eclipse, you lengthen the expected time to proc the next eclipse, reducing overall eclipse uptime by the same amount. Effectively, this would be modeled as some sort of DPET increase for non-eclipse nukes.

EDIT: I think i've found a way that i'm comfortable thinking about refreshing dots (at least outside of eclipse), Hopefully this will help those of us still wondering about it.

I'm going to assume no IIS for now.

A "Solar Eclipse cycle" (without dot refreshes) can be thought of as one big spell with a cast time of 15 + [expected proc time] and with some calculated expected damage value (just a sum of the expected damage during the procing period and the expected damage during the eclipse period.) The same can be said for "Lunar Eclipse cycle" (without dot refreshes), MF, and IS. In this model, there are only these 4 spells.

This model is legit because casting a dot before you start 'casting' an 'Eclipse cycle' has no affect on the damage done by that 'Eclipse cycle.' Nor does it affect the 'cast time' - it just adds a global cooldown to your overall rotation.

This helps me because now the 3.2 question of whether or not to cast a single dot when eclipse is not up is the same as an easy-to-answer question in this simplified model: "Should that dot be cast at all?"
And the answer is: Yes, if the expected DPET of the dot is higher than the expected DPET of the 'Eclipse cycle' that could be cast instead. So, now I have to calculate the expected DPET for the 'Eclipse Cycles', and that is gear-dependent and annoying.

God, this would be so much easier if dots would just have higher dpet than eclipsed nukes...

Ashen · 08/11/09, 7:21 PM

Except that with IIS... those DoTS DO have an effect on the rotation, albeit an arguably minor one. Granted your argument is without, but where else do those points go for more DPS?

• Hamlet · 08/11/09, 7:41 PM

If you're mathy enough, just try taking a look at the innards of Wrathcalcs. I already try to address everything mentioned so far on this page. There are obviously approximations and the like, but it should help clarify things.

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t59457-m...updated_3_2_a/

• Hamlet · 08/12/09, 1:09 AM

Today is the first day it's possible to have enough Emblems of Triumph to buy the new Idol. Could people post confirmations of how it works on live?

spiritryu · 08/12/09, 2:08 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Today is the first day it's possible to have enough Emblems of Triumph to buy the new Idol. Could people post confirmations of how it works on live?

Tested it out on a dummy. Proc'd pretty much every other Moonfire tick and should be able to maintain 100% uptime with it. Anything else you'd like me to test before I return it to get my feral idol?

• Hamlet · 08/12/09, 3:34 AM

Originally Posted by spiritryu

Tested it out on a dummy. Proc'd pretty much every other Moonfire tick and should be able to maintain 100% uptime with it. Anything else you'd like me to test before I return it to get my feral idol?

Nah, just wanted to make sure it still had the high proc rate and no ICD. Thanks!

Calmwind · 08/12/09, 3:42 AM

The new idol works great, saw a 2% increase over normal crit rates across the boards but still felt like eclipse doesn't proc enough. Anyone have a WWS to show how much more up time eclipse is getting compared with 3.1? I know its an improvement but i swear I'm not seeing 65% on most fights. Biggest problem is casting 3-4 starfires after a starfire eclipse before getting a wrath eclipse to proc, seems like wasted time to me. Honestly didn't know you could get 6 starfires out with out a crit XD.

Kiniaa · 08/12/09, 4:53 AM

I was told that Owlkin Frenzy now procs of magic dmg.
Anyone could maybe confirm this?
Would that make it viable option to take for raiding?
Cheers

Poromu · 08/12/09, 6:54 AM

It's been proccing off magic damage and no it's not worth taking for raiding over other talents. (Unless you're psuedo tanking like the head in Mimiron, but that's really encounter specific.)

Jezz · 08/12/09, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kiniaa

I was told that Owlkin Frenzy now procs of magic dmg.
Anyone could maybe confirm this?
Would that make it viable option to take for raiding?
Cheers

It does proc from any damage now, I was testing it out a bit during the first few days of 3.2 but we only did Northrend beasts then and during that encounter it procced twice. Although the damage is far from consistent and really only comparable to Ulduar HM damage during the second phase so I really didn't get a proper feeling for it. I did intend to test it further in Ulduar last week but completely forgot about it.

I can imagine it is heavily reliant on the encounter, a fight like Mimiron where the raid damage consists of a lot of small amounts of damage (such as hand pulse etc) I think it could be a pretty valuable talent. But even fights which feature heavy raid damage but are mainly huge hits (Freya HM, Algalon) the up-time will be much less and I am not sure if it is worthwhile.

The spec I was using involved dropping starfall and galewinds to pick up 3/3, if I played balance 100% and didn't need to switch to resto so often I would probably take a second spec with it but I don't feel it is valuable enough on all encounters to use it in my primary spec. Although if there are any Coliseum HMs that have frequent enough damage to give it a decent up-time I will probably take it for them.

Just looking through some wowhead comments I saw this which was quite interesting:

This seems to have a funny way of proccing. I've been debating lately whether to have our boomkins pick it up, and it's really only useful if it procs on AoE damage instead of just direct attacks. From browsing the logs of some of our recent fights with druids picking the talent up, here's some of my findings:

Mimiron - druid with 3/3 in the talent didn't have it proc once during the fight. there is a ton of aoe damage in phase 2 with rapid burst and heat wave. the druid got hit 41 times in total (rapid burst and heat wave initial applications)

Auriaya - it proc'd 2 times, but the weird thing is that it proc'd on the fear only. didn't proc from the shockwave damage taken, although there were only 4 hits from that so it could be RNG.

Hodir - we had 2 druids with 3/3 in the talent. one of them never had it proc in 9 attempts at hard mode. the other had 3 procs overall during the 9 attempts. the log browser shows 2 of the proc'ing from the freeze (i.e. frost nova spell) and one of the proc'ing when he got flash frozen into a block (which doesn't do anything). frozen blows and the biting cold aura never caused owlkin frenzy to proc (in 450 ticks between those two abilities).

shibbytastic · 08/12/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Szynszyla

Maybe i wasn't clear on my post above.

What happens with your eclipse calculations when this happen.

After Solar wrath ends, you want to keep spaming wrath to go into lunar. If you refresh 2 dots while waiting for lunar that means 2 possible wasted wrath casts that might grant you eclipse.

Same thing can happen with Lunar into Solar but the risk of it is much lower but if it happens, it lowers overall % of eclipse uptime time aswell. Any of these 2 don't matter that much, couse from what RAWR tells me, both eclipses with 2pT8 have the same DPS.

I hope all this DoT headacke will end soon when someone comes with some sort of simulations.

In a time limited fight we want to maximize our effective eclipse uptime, the amount of time when we are casting eclipse buffed nukes. We want to do this while casting our dots in the most effective way to maximise our dps.

If you refresh your dots during an eclipse proc you reduce your effective eclipse time by 1 GCD for each dot.

If you refresh your dot before the eclipse proc you are reducing your potential eclipse uptime by a global cooldown. Since you do not have a 100% chance to proc eclipse with the nukes, and since each cast has the same chance to proc eclipse you are decreasing effective eclipse uptime by less than if you were to refresh your dots during the eclipse, therefore it should be more advantageous to refresh dots between eclipses.