Moonkin Raiding - Page 135

Gerronimo · 09/10/09, 3:18 AM

Do we have some quantitative numbers or analysis of the effects of haste at and above the soft cap with varying (read: australian 180-200ish) latency?

I realise the value of it drops to roughly 0 around 400, but what i'm asking is whether you would gain more dps in a high latency environment by staying under the cap to get the lag reducing benefits of the spell queue system.

E.g. I'm running with 375 haste, trading a bunch of haste pieces for crit gear to stay under. If I went to only a small amount over the cap, say in the 400-480 range, would i get a dps benefit from the haste, or a dps penalty because i now get hit with aus_latency+reaction_time, instead of aus_latency-queue_benefit+reaction_time?

And if we get a penalty (which I think is what happens), do we have a quantitative relationship where the benefits of 400+ haste outweigh the penalty, for a given value of latency+reaction time?

Hope that makes sense. It *feels* worse to ride just above the cap, but feelings are the enemy of all good logic!

sulliwan · 09/10/09, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by Einz

I'm uncertain whether it's worth doing [SF -> Dot -> SF -> Dot] or [SF -> Dot -> Dot] if the SF did not proc eclipse. I'm leaning towards the latter whether the SF crits or not (unless of course, your dots happen to expire in a manner which would suit the first sequence)

The former, due to spell queueing mechanics you get a faster gcd if you leave a sf between dot refreshes. The time you save on casting dots seems to outweigh the damage the dot would have done itself.

jtalaimo · 09/11/09, 2:51 PM

Ok, first I'd like to say thanks cu you guys are on the ball on moonkins compared to other classes since the patches, I've officially switched my main to moonkin as well.

First, I'm re thinking my spec now, with never running OOM in 25 mans, much less using intervate, I'm leaning to removing my 2 points in intensity. I do not believe there is any reason to typhoon in any of TOC. So I'm looking at OF and brambles. OF looks more appealing, but my question is is it pointless to put 2 points in there if nothing increases in bonuses until you gave all three points?

My options now are either 1 point OW and 1 point brambles/ muunglow just for backup. Or even possibly, take a point out of omen of clarity and have all 3 on OW. I'd love to see some WWS with people that have OF. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on the matter?

Ghoselle · 09/11/09, 2:55 PM

I've been a RAWR user forever. I just upgraded from 2.2.14 to 2.2.15 and noticed something interesting.

It tells me that I should not be using IS any more. Notably, my theoretical DPS (with the buffs my 10-man group provides) are:
5976 MF/SF
5879 IS/MF/SF
5529 SF
5525 IS/SF

I'm running a 58/0/13 build with IS swarm glyphed and improved insect swarm talented with 2T8+2T9. (Note that in RAWR SF or W means casting whatever is appropriate for the current eclipse state.)

Is it the case that IS doesn't scale well enough and I should be skipping it except for situational uses (something to cast while running)? Or is this a bug in the new RAWR version? The RAWR release notes for 2.2.15 had a note of "Fix for a damage calculation bug."

• Hamlet · 09/11/09, 2:57 PM

Something is up if you have it Glyphed and it's telling you not to use it. Try plugging your stats into the spreadsheet?

Blades · 09/11/09, 11:38 PM

Something does indeed seem off with the latest Rawr. I'm also been told to drop IS, and it seems to be favouring haste more then it should (and did in previous versions). With 500 haste + Sundial, it's telling me to swap to Abyss which I doubt is correct?

Poromu · 09/12/09, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by jtalaimo

Ok, first I'd like to say thanks cu you guys are on the ball on moonkins compared to other classes since the patches, I've officially switched my main to moonkin as well.

First, I'm re thinking my spec now, with never running OOM in 25 mans, much less using intervate, I'm leaning to removing my 2 points in intensity. I do not believe there is any reason to typhoon in any of TOC. So I'm looking at OF and brambles. OF looks more appealing, but my question is is it pointless to put 2 points in there if nothing increases in bonuses until you gave all three points?

My options now are either 1 point OW and 1 point brambles/ muunglow just for backup. Or even possibly, take a point out of omen of clarity and have all 3 on OW. I'd love to see some WWS with people that have OF. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on the matter?

The very first question I would ask is do you have Nature's Focus? I'm finding it to be essential for all current end-game. I am currently specced into no regen talents aside from the token 1 point in Moonglow because Genesis is so bad. I go hours of raiding sometimes without Innervating myself at all.

Anyways, you have to remember that OF is the most situational dps talent we have. (Moreso than Typhoon.) If it doesn't proc off certain hits, or it doesn't proc off any unavoidable damage it's worth is near zero. Even in those fights where it might proc frequently it's worth can still be reduced by movement muchlike Eclipse.

The dual speccing is nice because you can associate an encounter needs with your available skills as opposed to your base skills. Unfortunately for me it's frequently Resto, but if I didn't need the niche I would totally have OF in an offspec.

Blades · 09/12/09, 9:04 AM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

ToC and ToGC 10man, specced 2/3 OF.

28 Procs, most from faction champs as you'd expect.
20% uptime on Anub(N), tho can't tell when they proc'd.

jtalaimo · 09/12/09, 10:16 AM

That's some good numbers, thanks. My question than would be what's he advantage of 1 point in OF and 2 points I'm OF. Unless I'm missing something the tooltip says nothing differently, so why have 2 points? Seems like 1 or all 3.

Starfox · 09/12/09, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Blades

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

ToC and ToGC 10man, specced 2/3 OF.

28 Procs, most from faction champs as you'd expect.
20% uptime on Anub(N), tho can't tell when they proc'd.

Duration 03:13
Time segment Anub'arak 10N

[20:56:32.000] Blayze afflicted by Permafrost from Frost Sphere
[20:56:32.000] Blayze gains Owlkin Frenzy from Blayze
[20:56:42.018] Blayze's Owlkin Frenzy fades

You got one proc in a 3m13 fight or am I missing something, but for me this seems to be not that close to 20% uptime.

Blades · 09/12/09, 4:27 PM

Maybe I'm putting too much faith in World of Logs numbers then, or I'm just not using it correctly - the latter is more then possible.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%

Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.

The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.

To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana innefficient for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.

Starfox · 09/12/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Blades

Maybe I'm putting too much faith in World of Logs numbers then, or I'm just not using it correctly - the latter is more then possible.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%

Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.

The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.

To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.

Hm, weird if I filter the log for blayze+owlkin frenzy it only shows me one proc which happened when you got the frost-dot.

Blades · 09/12/09, 7:55 PM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
From here, paste {"spellNames": ["Owlkin Frenzy"], "eventTypes": [4]}

Shows me 5 procs, 2 of which were renews.

On another topic: Trinket - Talisman of Volitile Power. Playing around with this, and looking over this log I find I can get it to full stack in <5seconds when used together with Starfall. So assuming I always use it together with starfall and a lunar eclipse - how good is it? I already use it on Anub, because the CD on it works out perfectly for his ground phases, but have been sticking with Sundial on other fights.

Erdluf · 09/12/09, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Blades

Something does indeed seem off with the latest Rawr. I'm also been told to drop IS, and it seems to be favouring haste more then it should (and did in previous versions). With 500 haste + Sundial, it's telling me to swap to Abyss which I doubt is correct?

Between 2.2.14 and 2.2.15, Rawr Moonkin changed some timing calculations (function in source is DoMainNuke())

2.2.14: The effective cast time for any spell was

max(gcd, cast_time/haste)+latency

2.2.15: Cast times are unchanged for instants (gcd+latency). For nukes (other than instant SF) it is now

Items in red here, are things I got wrong when I originally posted this.

Original post: No NG: (cast_time/haste). No latency.
No NG: max(cast_time/haste, GCD + latency)
With NG: max(cast_time/haste, NG GCD + latency)

With the default 0.2s latency:

Rawr 2.2.15 gives instants a larger penalty compared to Nukes. This would mean that IS (even glyphed) gets dropped sooner. I'm not sure this is the root cause for what you saw, though.

Original post: Rawr 2.2.15 says a NG Wrath takes at least 1.2s. A non-NG Wrath can be cast in less than 1.2s (with haste over 400). Obviously this makes makes haste more valuable (and crit less valuable) in 2.2.15, compared to 2.2.14.

My opinion: 2.2.15 is placing too much penalty on instants and NG-Wrath. To compensate, I'd guess using a smaller latency value (perhaps 0.05s) would be appropriate, but I haven't played with it yet.

Updated opinion: Charging no latency at all to SF is optimistic, and inflates the value of Haste (and diminishes the value of IS) a little. If SF cast times are going to be optimistic, I'd be inclined to pick a more optimistic latency for the other spells also (a Rawr latency setting in the range from 0.05 to 0.15)).

I think he intends to start using two latency values (one for slow nukes, and one for spells under the GCD). Right now there is no latency at all for slow nukes, even if "slow" means 1.02s.

jtalaimo · 09/13/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Blades

Maybe I'm putting too much faith in World of Logs numbers then, or I'm just not using it correctly - the latter is more then possible.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%

Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.

The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.

To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana innefficient for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.

if it's 5% per point wouldn't all three points in it be 15% rather than 10?? I have no idea but the talent trees are showing no difference in 1 and 2 points. P