Moonkin Raiding - Page 164

Happyakuu · 11/24/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

To flesh it out more, let's say that WE added ~300 DPS to a floor of 8000. Around 4% (just grabbing rough numbers from sheet). 4% of a 30s cycle is around 1 second. So that's a first-order estimate of a cutoff for how long it's worth waiting to time the Starfire. Note, however, if you're planning to wait more than 1s, you should be using that time to cast an instant, further complicating this process. Just to make it even worse, recall that the correct amount of time to wait depends on whether your previous spell happened to proc Nature's Grace.

So, for optimal DPS, you have to see when your second-last Starfire is going to land. You have to then decide whether to fit in an instant or not before you start the final Starfire. You have to do this computation for two cases however, depending on whether or not the second-last one procs NG.

This is getting beyond the point where I expect anyone to do it consistently without an addon (there's no reason not to make such an addon though, that tells you what to cast and gives a "golf"-style timer as someone mentioned above). But for now I'm just pointing out how absurd the mechanics become when you try to optimize the currently presented scheme.

So eventually they made a change hoping to prevent ppl from using an addon and end up causing ppl to have to use another addon... and lowering the dps of a class that is not usually on top of the meters... Whats the reason behind the change then? Who wins?

• Hamlet · 11/24/09, 12:34 PM

Losing WE/2T8 don't significantly change the value of crit. Losing 2T8 helps just by removing the Lunar cap. 4T10 will bump up the value of crit slightly, but won't seriously disturb the stat order.

Isenn · 11/24/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Quick spreadsheet update for people who want to play with the 3.3 changes. Changed 2T8 and 4T10, and disabled WiseEclipse (just an option on the second page). Will probably use it as a chance to update the guide over the break.

Hard to summarize coherently the net effect of the changes because they all interact. 4T10 is better when you crit more, so it was better with WE; 2T8 was also far stronger with WE. And the 4T10 vs. 2T8 tradeoff depends on your current gear options, so the effect of nerfing one and buffing the other varies widely. In brief, expect a net DPS loss (a few hundred) immediately from losing 2T8/WE, with around 100 DPS of that recovered when you get 4T10.

e: fixed this to account for nerf to Solar as well.

Thanks so much for getting WrathCalcs updated so quickly. I did notice you don't have 4T10 bonus in yet. Do you think you'll have that updated soon? I know 4T10 at this point is a long ways off, but with changes to T8 and WE the numbers become more important to us looking forward at our potential DPS in 3.3.

With my current gear 2T8+2T9(245) I show the following rough changes come 3.3:
(I am approximating DPS due to itemization as: iLvl 226 to iLvl 245 ~60DPS; 226 to 251 ~80; 226 to 264 ~120DPS /per item)
No gear change (ie patch day) ~ -300DPS
Switching to 4t9(245) ~ +128 net loss -172 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(251) ~ +175 net loss -125 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(264) ~ +255 net loss -45 DPS
From this trend I estimate that 4T10(264) will be the first Tier Set net DPS increase for us in 3.3.

That is a lot of tier gear upgrades to improve on our current 2T8+2T9 setup. Of course iLvl 277 will get you there faster, but given the staggered release I suspect many will have several T10(264) in their first 4T10 sets.

e: grammar and clarification.

Happyakuu · 11/24/09, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Losing WE/2T8 don't significantly change the value of crit. Losing 2T8 helps just by removing the Lunar cap. 4T10 will bump up the value of crit slightly, but won't seriously disturb the stat order.

PS: You might wanna update that sign Arawethion hehe... hating blizz atm.

Isenn · 11/24/09, 12:55 PM

Edit: Misread the post I was replying to. How do I delete this post? I just cleared the content to not cause any confusion.

gnoop · 11/24/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Happyakuu

PS: You might wanna update that sign Arawethion hehe... hating blizz atm.

It's still pertinent info until 3.3 hits. Once 3.3 hits, you're correct. The info would change. I would suppose that a caveat could be placed in there noting that this changes in 3.3 or something of that nature.

Boswell · 11/24/09, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

A serious raiding Moonkin who reads this change should immediately go to a target dummy and start practicing casting so that you can reliably land a Starfire precisely when Lunar fades naturally. It's ugly, it's twitchy, it's unreliable, and it will the correct way to optimze DPS if this change goes in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to create an addon that runs a stopcasting command at the right time when you're spamming Starfire button such that the cast lines up when Lunar fades?

copialinex · 11/24/09, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Boswell

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to create an addon that runs a stopcasting command at the right time when you're spamming Starfire button such that the cast lines up when Lunar fades?

It's protected, so it only can be launch from direct hardware inputs

Splade · 11/24/09, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Isenn

No gear change (ie patch day) ~ -300DPS
Switching to 4t9(245) ~ +128 net loss -172 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(251) ~ +175 net loss -125 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(264) ~ +255 net loss -45 DPS
From this trend I estimate that 4T10(264) will be the first Tier Set net DPS increase for us in 3.3.

So basically what you're saying is due to the WE and 2T8 nerf we get to spend all of ICC upgrading our gear trying to claw our way back to the DPS we're currently doing now?

Sounds like fun.

Isenn · 11/24/09, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Splade

So basically what you're saying is due to the WE and 2T8 nerf we get to spend all of ICC upgrading our gear trying to claw our way back to the DPS we're currently doing now?

Sounds like fun.

Well only to the extent of Tier pieces. As we upgrade other slots with ICC loot our DPS will go up too. But yeah it is sad that we may be out paced by other DPS specs that are not starting 3.3 with a DPS loss.

I based my itemization DPS increases off of this post:

Originally Posted by Arawethion

As a guideline, let's say that upgrading one armor slot by one tier (13 ilvls) confers about 40 DPS. This comes from my earlier calculation comparing 2T8 to 4T9, where it seems that upgrading two armor slots by 2.5 tiers each (226 to 258) recovers about 200 of the DPS lost from switching the set bonuses.

If we use the estimates for itemization increases from one ilvl tier to the next we can generate some estimates. I am assuming an average of ~40DPS for a 13 ilvl increase. Thus you would need to upgrade 7-8 non tier pieces from 245 to 264 gear break even for losing the 2T8 bonus or 4T10 pieces as the set bonuses convey added DPS. But yeah we are going to be spending weeks just getting back to the dps we are doing now. I have not done the napkin math for those going from T9(258) combos but would suspect a similar number of ilvl upgrades to break even. These are all rough estimates to get a general picture of where we are headed in 3.3. It could be the gap is smaller too because the itemization is more optimal in ICC loot as well.

A nerf is a hole that we must climb out of. Improving skill, as was brought out, or a new add-on may counter some of the WE DPS loss too, and then less new gear would be needed to break even as well.

All the numbers I used are based off of the last WrathCalcs posted with my own stats and gear: 2T8(226)+2T9(245), Illumination(245), 3 pieces of 258 (back, boots, wrist), and the rest ilvl 245. My main is Isen on Arygos. Other people will find the works differently depending on the gear they have. Those better geared may need more upgrades while lesser geared will need less. The reason for this is that the ilvl itemization is once again the biggest factor in our gear upgrades. Which after all was Blizzards intent for nerfing 2T8.

Personally I would like to see a bigger 2T10 bonus to compensate a lil bit more for the 2T8 but it is what it is, for now.

Boswell · 11/24/09, 3:49 PM

I did a bit of testing and concluded that my suggestion was not possible(with quit scripts). So I guess the only possibility way is precise timing.

lauriusboomkin · 11/24/09, 10:58 PM

So wait I am confused is it actually advisable to stop a cast now in order to chain eclipse's... wouldn't that still be a dps loss? or am I totally unclear of what you guys are getting at with this new WE killer.

Yijiao · 11/25/09, 4:29 AM

They were. That being said, I imagine that this would be a DPS loss. Theoretically, if we have to cast the extra starfire, if you are soft-crit capped, 55% of the time, you get starfire crit damage and into wrath anyway. I don't think not casting for a time that would average about 1 second would be advisable given this number.

I did some testing with reign today, it seems as if any cast between 1.9 and 2.1 after the last proc has a chance to proc the mote that is less than 100 but greater than 0, anything faster has no chance, anything slower has a 100% chance. The items internal cooldown isn't overwhelmingly fine tuned, but removing haste to increase trinket output isn't advisable.

On another note, we did Yogg 0 today, yay server spam. A good fight for moonkins.

Dachus · 11/25/09, 11:07 AM

What about Shapeshifting? I have a particular Boomkin that is a very strong Resto Druid but, has been working as a Boomkin for the last several months. DPS is strong, spec is good etc. and when he stays as a Boomkin he usually does pretty well.

However, on progression type fights when things get hairy he's constantly switching forms, healing himself and others. It should be noted we're a 10 man group. (Note: when he's resto, he'll do the same thing - get bored while the fight is building and will switch forms to DPS -- not as huge an issue as he's a strong player and typically gets back into form)

My thoughts:

1 - shifting out of form drops the Aura from the whole Raid, obviously making an impact to DPS
-- is this significant? Should I be as concerned about this as I am?
2 - costs him Mana
3 - makes it difficult for us to easily identify where the issues are (ie: he hops out and heals the tank to keep us going but, then someone OOM's (or he does) - do we have a healing issue, tank issue, DPS issue... you ge the point)

I'm just wondering if there's any hard n' fast rules / thoughts on this. I'm by no means an authority on Druid's so I'm hoping someone can provide some guidance on how I should handle this guy.

My stance has been: stay in form and DPS - if you want to heal then we'll open a Resto spot for you.

Any input from you Druid folks would be greatly appreciated (and I hope I posted this in the correct forum; please forgive if I did not).

Isenn · 11/25/09, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dachus

What about Shapeshifting? I have a particular Boomkin that is a very strong Resto Druid but, has been working as a Boomkin for the last several months. DPS is strong, spec is good etc. and when he stays as a Boomkin he usually does pretty well.

However, on progression type fights when things get hairy he's constantly switching forms, healing himself and others. It should be noted we're a 10 man group. (Note: when he's resto, he'll do the same thing - get bored while the fight is building and will switch forms to DPS -- not as huge an issue as he's a strong player and typically gets back into form)

My thoughts:

1 - shifting out of form drops the Aura from the whole Raid, obviously making an impact to DPS
-- is this significant? Should I be as concerned about this as I am?
2 - costs him Mana
3 - makes it difficult for us to easily identify where the issues are (ie: he hops out and heals the tank to keep us going but, then someone OOM's (or he does) - do we have a healing issue, tank issue, DPS issue... you ge the point)

I'm just wondering if there's any hard n' fast rules / thoughts on this. I'm by no means an authority on Druid's so I'm hoping someone can provide some guidance on how I should handle this guy.

My stance has been: stay in form and DPS - if you want to heal then we'll open a Resto spot for you.

Any input from you Druid folks would be greatly appreciated (and I hope I posted this in the correct forum; please forgive if I did not).

I made the same transition. After being a tree main spec for 2 years I was being asked by the guild more and more to go moonkin. Finally switching my main spec to moonkin. At first my healer instincts would kick in regularly and I would pop out a heal or two in a harry or low health situation. But as I grew into my roll as a DPS I learned to trust the healers in the raid and let them do their job. Sure if you are down a healer the hybrid dropping form to heal and save the fight is one thing, but if all members are up and no is CC'd he should be in form trusting the healers do their job.

In my opinion, if a tank dies when the rest of the raid is alive, then the issue is with the healers or the tank. But either way the moonkin should be a moonkin and let the rest of the raid do their roles. Otherwise like you said you won't know where the issue really lies. Now if you had no qualms with a hybrid having a blended roll, ie healing and dpsing in the same fight on a regular basis then you could see if this druids play style could fit your raid balance. But is you are balancing around the druid filling a single role, he should be that role and only change it in an emergency.

My 2 cents.