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Old 11/25/09, 2:27 PM   #2461
sp101
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Dachus View Post
What about Shapeshifting? I have a particular Boomkin that is a very strong Resto Druid but, has been working as a Boomkin for the last several months. DPS is strong, spec is good etc. and when he stays as a Boomkin he usually does pretty well.

However, on progression type fights when things get hairy he's constantly switching forms, healing himself and others. It should be noted we're a 10 man group. (Note: when he's resto, he'll do the same thing - get bored while the fight is building and will switch forms to DPS -- not as huge an issue as he's a strong player and typically gets back into form)

My thoughts:

1 - shifting out of form drops the Aura from the whole Raid, obviously making an impact to DPS
-- is this significant? Should I be as concerned about this as I am?
2 - costs him Mana
3 - makes it difficult for us to easily identify where the issues are (ie: he hops out and heals the tank to keep us going but, then someone OOM's (or he does) - do we have a healing issue, tank issue, DPS issue... you ge the point)


I'm just wondering if there's any hard n' fast rules / thoughts on this. I'm by no means an authority on Druid's so I'm hoping someone can provide some guidance on how I should handle this guy.

My stance has been: stay in form and DPS - if you want to heal then we'll open a Resto spot for you.

Any input from you Druid folks would be greatly appreciated (and I hope I posted this in the correct forum; please forgive if I did not).
1- Shifting out of form to throw a heal or two arround once per fight isn't going to have a significant impact on raid DPS.
2- Mana is a non-issue as balance. Your moonkin probably specced out of every mana regeneration talents, except for maybe 1-2 points in Intensity in addition to Omen of Clarity.
3- Are we talking about the occasional rejuvenation followed by a nourish, or is he staying long periods outside of forms?

As for an "hard and fast rule", staying alive is usually the best way to make your DPS go up. When I get into trouble in a raid damage heavy fight (Think HM Mimiron, HM General Vezax, HM Twins Val'kyr), I usually Barkskin->Healthstone, then proceed to heal myself with a quick nourish (or get a tick or two of tranquility if anyone in my group is also in trouble).

Of course you can tell him to trust his healers, make him play like he was a pure dps class without the ability to heal, yet they still survive most fight. But pure dps classes (and most hybrids) have very good defensive cooldowns (Iceblock, Cloak of Shadow, Bubble) while we're stuck with Barkskin (and possibly healthstone) as our only survival cooldown.

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Old 11/25/09, 2:43 PM   #2462
Dachus
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
<SRC>
Malfurion
both excellent points....

Let me throw this caveat in there..

What about Raid positioning and foot work in fights light Firefighter and General HM. Especially in a 10m group where people need to move together and in the case of General when people get out of 'whack' it can significantly impact the rest of the 'team'.

I love the ability of our Boomkin to be able to snag a quick heal on the tank when things go sideways and/or keep himself alive but, I guess my question is impact to the Raid.

As regular chicken players in here can anyone comment on the impact it makes during your play? Is this a big distraction / can you see where it may impact team mates and if so, are there any 'tips n' tricks' you could offer on lessening that impact?

Any Raid leaders have a comment on this?

Thanks for your responses so far, it's highly appreciated; any more will be as well!

Cheers

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Old 11/25/09, 10:29 PM   #2463
TreeHug
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Just feels like there is way too much reliance/vested dps build into Eclipse. Its cool to change rotation, however if our competitive dps was build upon one talent (and set bonus) then that isn't a great design at all. That dps should be shared into other suitable talents.

I guess we'll understand more clearly once the nerfs hit; but going backwards in dps doesn't help future invitation to raids to get the gear to "claw our way back to the DPS we're currently doing".

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Old 11/26/09, 4:22 AM   #2464
feior
Glass Joe
 
feior's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
It's odd to think that blizzard would remove the benefits of WE just to force us to play a time-waiting game with the last starfire. I believe Blizzard is trying to enforce the idea that you should be proc'ing each eclipse by virtue of the spell's natural crit (not by exploiting the more detailed mechanics of the eclipse mechanism). Trying to time your starfire to take advantage of client-side buffs/internet-server lag is similar to cheating, like wave dashing in smash bros. It's an odd, but very favorable, feature that was surely unintended.

But yeah, I don't think the "fix" that blizzard implemented is a very good one as well. As people WILL attempt to take advantage of it anyhow, except now it's just harder to take advantage of. The problem still exists, just in a smaller (yet still reasonably exploitable) form.

Along with the other major hits to the moonkin, I just wish they would provide a much better buff to moonkins other than a 2% crit buff on the final 4-tier bonus. I don't think we are OP, and we deserve a nice buff to the 2pt10 like longer proc durations, having durations "stack" on each other instead of overriding, or both!

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Old 11/26/09, 4:26 AM   #2465
feior
Glass Joe
 
feior's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
I did some testing on my moonkin the other day with proczilla and I kept getting about 1.3 clearcasting procs per minute. This is much lower than the 3.5 ppm (or even 2 ppm) that I've seen posted in forums. I was testing for about an hour. Was I really unlucky? Is proczilla not working appropriately? If there had been some previous testing done, is there a link to this test data/post?

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Old 11/26/09, 6:23 AM   #2466
melth
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by feior View Post
I did some testing on my moonkin the other day with proczilla and I kept getting about 1.3 clearcasting procs per minute. This is much lower than the 3.5 ppm (or even 2 ppm) that I've seen posted in forums. I was testing for about an hour. Was I really unlucky? Is proczilla not working appropriately? If there had been some previous testing done, is there a link to this test data/post?
PPM is based on a castspeed of 1s, which means the proc per hit with ppm = 3,5 (speed * ppm / 60) is 5,8%
If it were based on the base castspeed of the spell or even the actual castspeed we would obviously see more procs.

From my latest logs 5,8% is about right.

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Old 11/26/09, 6:59 AM   #2467
Aym
Banned
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hellscream (EU)
Couldn't find this on any page, but i will keep it short:

Regarding 4pt10: Ignite can crit, right? Can languish?

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Old 11/26/09, 7:36 AM   #2468
amped
Von Kaiser
 
amped's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Aym View Post
Couldn't find this on any page, but i will keep it short:

Regarding 4pt10: Ignite can crit, right? Can languish?
Ignite cannot crit.

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Old 11/26/09, 9:19 AM   #2469
Shantaram
Banned
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kael'thas (EU)
I have a slightly "hybrid" take on Dachus' point, which is - if I get correctly - should (and when) a Moonkin heal at all?

One of the benefits of having roles defined in a raid is "expectability" in the gameplay. In other words, if you heal, you know you're going to cast a bunch of hots before your mates start taking damage, etc. This is obviously key to the success of an encounter, except maybe on weirder fights like Faction Champions, but that's another story.

My point here, is that although having good reflexes, and occasionally saving one of your buddys' ass is great, healing the main tank is not generally your job: in short, do it if you are supposed to do it at some point during the fight, don't do it out of "omg tank has low hp." Because if you do, your raid loses a bit of that expectability, and it may affect progress.

Healers need to learn when the tank is at risk, when the raid is at risk, etc. If you "reflex-heal" your mates, you affect this learning process in an arguably negative way.

However ! If there is an encounter that can be made easier with a plan that involves you healing, then by all means, this is a great thing to do. Operative word here is "plan". I'd also like to hint at the fact that tranquility, because it is such a unique spell, is probably what you want to plan for in 90% of the cases. I remember, as an example, than Sartharion3D (10 man) speedkill required the moonkin to pop tranquility at some point during the fight to ensure the raid survived. From the top of my mind it was when d2 and d3 were active, or somewhere around that time (I was not moonkin at the time).

Interesting question, hope my answer will be useful to it.

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Old 11/26/09, 9:50 AM   #2470
Zifrelm
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Blade
On the topic of dropping out of form to heal:
To be quite honest, if you're paying so much attention to the tank that you drop out to heal them, you're not paying attention to what you're supposed to be doing, i.e. DPS. Or just as likely, you notice too late and your heal is wasted because the real healers do their job before your heal gets off.

One exception would be healing yourself in a pinch, as paying attention to your own status is part of everyone's job. Another would be a planned usage of Tranquility, such as in XT hardmode or Twins hardmode (if you aren't switching colors for vortitces). A third might be when trying to salvage a fight when a real healer has died so you completely switch roles.

In general though, seems like a terrible idea.


On the topic of our 3.3 nerfs:
The changes are necessary, I think; I just hope we don't lose our ability to pull competitive DPS at comparable gear levels, as is the case now. Our 4T10 bonus is now closer to what it should be (hoped for 8% or more, but I'll take 7%), so I'm not too concerned with the 2T8 nerf other than a short term hit to my DPS, but losing WE without compensation will probably hurt us in the long run.

Ghostcrawler remarked on the situation. Not exactly a satisfactory response, but at least they know what's going on.
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Rogues get a buff. Moonkins get a nerf?

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Old 11/26/09, 2:01 PM   #2471
Angelfire
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Some interesting words from GC on the T8 nerf and Eclipse in general:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Rogues get a buff. Moonkins get a nerf?

To get to the point:
Our intent was not to nerf Balance druid dps with this change. Our intent was to make a macro or addon that was quickly becoming mandatory at competitive levels not mandatory. It would be one thing if cancelling Eclipse auras was a fun or interesting choice, but since everything was so automated, the only thing I can really imagine anyone getting upset about was the dps loss, which we plan on offsetting.
He does not go into details about how they are going to "Offset", but I suggest waiting with calculating upgrades and what our DPS loss will be until he does.

On another note, I don't think I've seen this mentioned here:
Tier 10 Sets
Item - Druid T10 Balance 4P Bonus - Your critical strikes from Starfire and Wrath cause the target languish for an additional 7% of your spell's damage over 4 sec. (Up from 5%)
Edit:
Just posted with the guy above me, sorry for the seemingly double post

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Old 11/26/09, 3:02 PM   #2472
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
Hamlet's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Well, for what it's worth, I made a post on the official forums:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> WiseEclipse comments, from its originator

(First time I've posted there in like 3 years :/ ). Let's see if anything happens.


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Old 11/26/09, 11:17 PM   #2473
debulla
Glass Joe
 
Undead Druid
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
I haven´t thought it through thorougly, but in my opinion one of the biggest scaling problems for us moonkins is not exclusively eclipse, but wrath. Wrath goes below our gcd since months and we have to cope with the 400 haste-rating-softcap since the beginning of Ulduar. This could be easily fixed via glyphs, e.g.
Glyph of Wrath: Increases damage of your wrath spells by 20%, but also increases its cast time by 30%.
Actual percentage-numbers could be theory-crafted. This glyph would replace the IS-Glyph, bringing back the 3% miss-chance while keeping NGs functionality. The loss of IS´s damage might be counterbalanced in the balance-tree, e.g. a 15% dmg-increase, if needed.
The benefit would be a more "balanced" and scalable spell-combination of SF and W while keeping dots intact, plus giving the player a choice to glyph it or not, depending on his equip.

What do you think?

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Old 11/27/09, 3:15 AM   #2474
feior
Glass Joe
 
feior's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
I think the purpose of the IS glyph was to choose either the 3% mitigation or 30% dmg increase on IS. One might think that giving up on optimal DPS is odd, but a few raiders actually lower their capabilities (be it from losing out on talents or glyphs) for the better of the raid - IS unglyphed, scorch, tree revitalize talent. I suppose all I'm saying is that the IS glyph is not mandatory.

I suppose if a wrath glyph like that came out, then we might be all over that... but are you assuming that the IS glyph is rendered useless then? Because the IS glyph might still be useful for PvP.

Originally Posted by melth View Post
PPM is based on a castspeed of 1s, which means the proc per hit with ppm = 3,5 (speed * ppm / 60) is 5,8%
If it were based on the base castspeed of the spell or even the actual castspeed we would obviously see more procs.

From my latest logs 5,8% is about right.
Ah ok so it's 5.8% for any spell. Meaning that if my wrath was 1.26 seconds and I was just spamming wrath, I'd expect to see about 2.77 PPM. Unfortunately the test I did was pure wrath spam for an hour and I was getting about 1.3 PPM. Perhaps I just had really really crappy RNG and/or proczilla was recording while I was mana'ing up. I'll try again another night I suppose.

Last edited by feior : 11/27/09 at 3:43 AM. Reason: Just adding response to someone else responding to me

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Old 11/27/09, 4:38 AM   #2475
Aeiedil
Glass Joe
 
Aeiedil's Avatar
 
Troll Druid
 
Shattered Hand (EU)
I was giving some thought about the Wrath issue last night. I don't really think increasing the cast time of Wrath would help, it would simply move the goal posts. What would be interesting is if haste were to effect Starfire and Wrath differently, i.e.

Starfire : behaviour as-is
Wrath : haste increases the base damage and mana cost (maintain same mana to damage ratio) but does not affect casting speed. casting speed increases still increase the speed of casting (i.e. bloodlust/heroism etc).

This would change the dynamic of the two spells as well as effectively removing the haste soft cap to a much higher number. It then becomes a choice of how much mana you want to burn in a given time as the more haste you have, the more wrath will burn.

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