Having Haste affect Wrath differently than it affects every other spell in the game sounds like pie in the sky to me.

Giving Wrath a longer cast time only moves the goal posts, but having a spell that can be haste capped isn't the problem. The problem with Wrath is the difference between the cast times of Starfire and Wrath is so large that softcapping Wrath happens much too soon, and halves the value of Haste.

If Wrath had a longer cast time, haste capping would occur later, and the value of haste wouldn't change so drastically at such a low rating.

I think it could be fixed much more easily if itemization of dungeon gear is changed.
IMO, Haste as a stat should be reduced significantly on Tier 9/10 items in favor to spellpower and/or crit.
Instead of changing talents, glyphs or spells.

Advantage:
- No crude change in spell logic (like haste translated into damage via talent/spell/etc)
- no risk that wrath and SF become similar spells over time (thats the problem I actually see with debullas proposal)
- no direct effect on PvP
- no effect on other classes
- stepwise adaptation possible

disadvantage:
- if SP is used as substitute: none, if crit is used, soft crit cap might be reached soon as well.

Problem solved.

2 piece bonus - When you gain Clearcasting from your Omen of Clarity talent, you deal 15% additional Nature and Arcane damage for 6 seconds.


I have some questions and i'm away on thanksgiving a while, and therefore unable to answer any of these questions myself. Can we examine this set bonus a little more?
There are several ways to get a clearcasting.. one way is to cast hurricane, but another way is to cast gift of the wild. This is an extremely weak set bonus based on what i've seen posted here, but are there places where it would be useful to try and specifically get a clear casting?

For example cast gift of the wild right before or even during a blood lust? right before we pop starfall? I've read a post about someone using typhoon on anub to proc his clear casting.. is that another reliable way to proc clear casting and if so, how many npcs do we have to hit to make it more reliable?

This has the possibility of being a very clunky mechanic, and i'm very doubtful of a dps gain even by popping gift of the wild, but it could have slight dps benefits to other spells that are more likely to cause a clear casting event.

I learned a lot from these forums. However, as I read about the 3.3 nerf and its effect on WiseEclipse, I have to wonder what all the fuss is about.

I didn't always use WiseEclipse. However, when I did start using it, WiseEclipse alone was worth 300dps. However, even with the 300dps buff, my dps still wasn't competitive with other classes, such as rogues, warriors, and hunters.

There is also discussion about how Moonkin aren't overly competitive on the damage charts. I agree with this too. Instead of trying to work outside the design intent of what the designers had in mind, why not comply? For those of you who can manually pull off timing SF at the end of Eclipse, go for it. Everyone else, you will have to suffer the "old fashioned" way of procc'ing eclipse. I would say that is the skill factor.

Overall, instead of most moonkin having dps that is "buffed" by mods, developers will eventually see that Moonkin have weaker than average dps for same gear levels. Hopefully this will be enough for them to "fix" something.

The argument that Moonkin will be invited less and less to raids because of the dps nerf can only be a good thing in the long run. Unless the developers really don't care about distribution.

And this is what is debatable: What is Blizzards POV for gearing up Endgame-Moonkins? T10 is pretty perfectly itemized, hit, haste, crit, all the way. However, current loot-lists from ICC contain exclusively spirit-based leather-gear, excepting emblem-loot which might be of lower quality if someone sees it from the hardmode-loot-POV. Blizz will never ever change their way of creating items in favour of moonkins, meaning e.g. hit on non-tier-set-leather-items is a no-go in the future, which has already been considered in our tree.
--> Leather-gear will never have exclusive stats for Moonkins <-> Ele-shamans might take advantage of its increased (spell-)stats, messing around their BIS-lists and -trees again. This means gear-wise moonkins will not receive a special status.

Blizz seems to force us to equip spirit-crit-combo-gear >400 haste to achieve the dps they want us to, especially without the T8-2p crit-bonus. Why spirit? Why the low dmg-coefficient for spirit? Are hasted dots the way to go?

WiseEclipse favoured wrath, so the "nerf" is not going to have a 100%-impact, in fact the old ratio SF>W will be restored more or less, with all its consequences (stacking haste again?). I also guess infight no one will care about waiting 0.1s beforce casting SF to hit the 0s-mark which is absurd to think of further.

These circumstances cannot be ignored and have to be taken into account when optimizing this scaling-issue. The fact that one out of four stats, haste, is pretty useless for 50% of our main nukes above a certain level, is awkward, especially when fast-forwarding to Cataclysm: Spirit is a thing of the past (hit too?), not gaining 30% spell out of it anymore, remaining haste and crit. Great...
Which other class has gcd-issues as well?


What might be interesting, but implies some work, is a batched analysis, e.g. via simcraft, of haste scaling with a raised wrath-softcap and without spirit-based spellpower, especially compared with other classes.


//Disclaimer: english is not my native language

debulla, I did a post on strayegg.com that should be going up later on today (if I set up the schedule right) that discusses the GCD briefly. I don't see it entirely as a problem, as much an irritation that we should seek to work around. It may be that Blizzard intend moonkin to prioritise haste less than most other classes or similar, we do seem to be a very crit-centric build after all considering our mana regen seems to be heavily based on critting not to mention natures grace, eclipse etc

Angelfire, if I understood oomcredible's point correctly I think you missed it. As long as we have an addon boosting our dps beyond the intended design from Blizzard then any analysis of endgame moonkin dps within the scope of a current set of rules/patch will be tainted. Any defect will be hidden as a significant proportion (if my straw-polls ingame are to be believed) of endgame raiding moonkin have been using WiseEclipse.

If they remove that addons effect (as they have done) as well as the other crutch, the tier 8 2 piece being overpowered for the level, then it will hopefully expose the real issue that our base dps is not up to par comparitively. Until that is made clear and their data supports that they will be unlikely to fix it, as any fix while boosted by WE would lead to us being possibly over the top DPS-wise

I look forward to 3.3, I am optimistic that we will not be disappointed

First, if I have misunderstood that post, I do appologize.
Second, I have to disagree.
Before Blizz releases any nerf/buff/change to our DPS, they will test it thoroughly in their labs. Then, they will alpha/beta it, then, if all it well, they will release it. If after all this proccess, and a few month of player complaints, they think they made a mistake, they will think of new ways to fix, and go through the whole proccess again. Now, do you think that the 100-300 DPS gained by WE can change all that significantly enough to move us from being so far under par that Blizz needs to fix us to being comperative DPS? The 2pT8 did change it enough, but that's not why Blizz nerfed it. And the DPS gain we got from WE was not the reason Blizz destroyed it as well. The reasons are they don't want players to fight Arthas in T8 gear (which I have to agree with, I thought it sucked going into ICC with T8, no matter the DPS gain), and they don't like addons replacing players with decision making, which is nothing new at all, so they killed WE just like they killed the rogues addon, and they nerfed out T8 just like they nerfed shammies, just to keep in line with their design philosophy, not because of any DPS issues. In fact, they promised to compensate us for the nerf, because they think our DPS with WE and 2pT8 was just about right, and they want to keep it as base line going into T10, and they don't want us to suffer for their philosophy.

On a side note, I completly agree with your last comment. I too look forward to 3.3, and I have no doubt we shall continue to do competative DPS, as we do now. It may take some work on our addons writers, but we'll be there, just like before.

Making sure our DPS is worth a raid spot is pretty much the goal of everyone here. Posting on Blizzard Official Forums might be a way to change things for the best, but first we need something to suggest them. These boards acts as a brainstorming / feedback tool for those suggesting ways for Blizzard to fix our current issues.

It seems to me that blizzard truly wants us to alternate back and forth 15 seconds starfire, 15 seconds wrath, the problem we have is the proc aspect of eclipse. It's quite clear when you look at boomkin damage that blizzard expects a near 100% uptime of the either buff and it simply doesn't happen that way since we not only have to put up dots but also have to deal with all the generally encounter specific disruption.

It feels like instead of having to proc eclipse we should be given a talent as follows.

3 points talent - Eclipse - when you enter combat you enter either solar or lunar eclipse. Every 15 seconds the eclipse will swap. While under solar eclipse your wrath spell does 5/10/15% additional damage and while under lunar eclipse your starfire has a 5/10/15% additional chance to critical strike.

This would not only allow for alot easier balancing on blizzards side, but it would also enable boomkins to have a bit more control over their own damage which right now is so much at the mercy of rng at times to just stay competitive. Also blood lust and other cooldown effects become far more easy to utilise fully under this system.

As far as the wrath problem, it feels like the real issue is nature's grace. Random proc on cast speed makes things awkward, if it were anything else but cast speed we wouldn't be seeing the issues with a very low soft cap that we currently do, so this would be my choice for a talent to alter into something else that procs on a spell crit. Either a spell power buff or a buff that would be consumed on your next periodic spell that halves the tick speed (ie. you would have to consider when it was correct to over write an existing dot to consume the buff as soon as possible before it either ran out or you procced another one, it could also be interesting from a healing perspective)

NG is a huge problem for wraith clipping, instead of making a glyph of wrath, just change NG, to be 20% Spellpower buff instead of +20% haste. Bam, haste soft-cap moved much much higher, with a bonus of increasing our dot damage, to put us slightly more competitive in DPS.

I think I may have been a bit too unspecific when I was writing

The 2pt8 I agree was changed becuase it was crazy to have a tier set used 2 tiers later over current tiers, or even have any discussion over the point. When a tier set is so far OP that it's undeniable then it does need adjustment, and it's nice they waited until there was an alternative.

What I meant with WiseEclipse is that the dPS boost is what is shown in their logs. I don't deny they do masses of internal testing prior to changes going live, however any amount of testing they can do compared to the "real-world" testing of the PTR is likely to be less important. The PTR shows how real players use what mechanics there are. If they are all using WE (going on the assumption that a lot of the raiders on PTR are liable to be the sort that try to squeeze the most of their dps) or otherwise adjusting their DPS by playing the game mechanics in unintended ways then it would make it harder to see a disparity between actual Moonkin DPS and the DPS due to the addon.

We could probaly talk this over back and forth though without anything meaningful being determined, so will wait and see what they come up with once they are done eating turkey