Moonkin Raiding - Page 169

Zagortenej · 12/02/09, 5:19 AM

It's confirmed by blue post:

Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator)

* Eclipse now increases damage done by Wrath by 40% (up from 30%) and the critical chance of Starfire by 40% (up from 30%)

Aeiedil · 12/02/09, 6:34 AM

I'm in 2 minds about this, but at the end of the day it was the simplest change they could make I expect and doesn't dramatically change any Moonkin habits that I can see.

It moves the non-2T8 crit cap down a little to a point where given the inevitable increase in stats both the soft haste and soft crit caps may be attainable. Will do some napkin maths later on (not entirely sure that I have the correct numbers when I posted about the crit cap for moonkin)

Aym · 12/02/09, 7:18 AM

Will these changes affect the way we weigh stats towards each other? I often use the numbers from the Beginner Moonkin Guide (haste 0,9, crit 1,1, SP 1,4 etc) when deciding one item over the other, but when we are so close to a soft crit cap, it may change the value of crit.

If this is the case, then i would assume the rundown of it would be "get your haste to 400, then get your crit to xx%. After that, stats are worth.."

I am not sure at which point this would take place, and how the stats would be balanced hereafter. Tier 10 4 piece is heavely affected by crit, after all, but any increase in crit won't affect starfires during lunar eclipse much more than it already does.

Aeiedil · 12/02/09, 7:32 AM

If you weren't at the soft crit cap in 2PT8 in 3.2 then you won't be at the soft crit cap in 3.3.

If I am correct the soft crit cap in 3.3 is at approximately 38%. This is without raid buffs, in Moonkin form. Focus Magic brings this down to about 35%. Beyond this it is conceivable that Haste will again be slightly more valuable than Critical Strike rating. At this point though both will still benefit jus tnot as much as before.

It assumes that when buffed you will have 5% from Improved Scorch / Improved Shadowbolt / Winters Chill (have heard some mages talking of trying out a frost DPS spec so this may make an appearance, who knows). It also assumes 3% from Totem of Wrath / Heart of the Crusader / Master Poisoner

Is there someone with a more precise grasp of the numbers hiding that can pad out the above with something more precise?

I have the 3.2 numbers here : Strayegg.com - Moonkin critical strike rating
Will update for 3.3 shortly, need to do some checking because I'm not 100% convinced that they are entirely accurate still.

ninor · 12/02/09, 8:11 AM

From the TTT:

"Crit Chance, before Intellect and crit rating: 5% (Moonkin Form) + 5% (Improved Scorch) 3% (Totem of Wrath) + 3% (Improved Faerie Fire) = 16%. Adding in 4% (Nature's Majesty), 3% (Improved Insect Swarm) and 10% (Improved Moonfire) gives 20% for Wrath, 23% for Starfire, and 26% for Moonfire, added to whatever you see reported in your character sheet when out of form."

Since we're only really talking about starfire, I'll use 23%.

Let's use Qieth as an example since he has really high crit rating.

At 915 crit rating he is at 28.76% out of form.

In 3.2 with 2T8 that means:
28.76% + 23% + 15% + 30% = 96.76% chance to crit with starfire during eclipse.

In 3.3 with 2T8 that means:
28.76 + 23% + 7% + 40 = 98.76% chance to crit with starfire during eclipse.

Obviously he will not be using the 2T8 for long, which should put him further from the cap (haven't checked the difference here, but going to assume it will not cover the 7% loss).

Erdluf · 12/02/09, 9:01 AM

Add 4.79% crit from the t10 Idol, or 4.36% from [Idol of Lunar Fury].

Compared to Armory, you'll also gain more than 1% crit from increased intellect (MotW, AI, BoK). 166.7 Int is 1% crit.

3% crit is also available from Focus Magic, and the Mage has an incentive to cast it on someone with a high crit rate.

Druidark · 12/02/09, 10:03 AM

I suppose that might be possible if only one mage in the raid. If 2 or more mages are in one raid they will most likely do it on each other. I think its better to just ignore focus magic as it can't be guaranteed.

Aeiedil · 12/02/09, 10:30 AM

Has anyone seen anything about Focus Magic? I mean presumably some classes benefit more than others from the 3% crit so was wondering whether it could be argued that the way mages share FM among themselves is too selfish, and that there should be a priority order behind who gets focus magic within a raid.

As a Moonkin I am obviously liable to argue the case that Moonkin are more crit-centric than, for example, an arcane mage or a warlock and so would benefit more from the 3% extra from having the buff, seeing as the casting mage still gets a 3% boost back to them

Aym · 12/02/09, 10:32 AM

Naturally, i would switch to 4pt9.245 when 3.3 hits. By this i lose the +7% bonus from 2pt8, but i would possibly gain a bit of crit from swapping around gear. I am going to assume that i don't have Focus Magic.

So to add the suggestions from Erdluf, my crit in 3.3 would be:

28.76% + 23% + 40% + 4,79% + 1%* = 97,55%
* the 1% is from the extra int i would get from kings.

I still have upgrades to get in TOTGC25, and if i don't upgrade my crit anymore in 3.2, i would surely do it in Icecrown. I also see other, better geared moonkins, that have more crit than i do (Cyclownd of Darksorrow EU for example), and they would definately be at the crit cap come 3.3.

When 3.3 hits, and when i get the T10 idol, i would be ~2,5% crit away form 100% (and at a statistical low chance to not crit during starfire). At 31,21% chance to crit with the idol running, but outside of moonkin form, we would be at 100% chance to crit.

Can we pinpoint a number (unbuffed in moonkin form, or fully raidbuffed - just some benchmark) where we, with the T10 idol, will be at 100% crit chance, and how will this affect the value of crit rating?

• Hamlet · 12/02/09, 10:39 AM

The TTT post (sig) already computes the crit cap in terms of armory (unbuffed) stats. 1346 - Int/3. To recompute for 3.3, just add 5% (assuming no 2T8), or 5 * 45.9 rating.

New cap will be at 1575 - Int/3, including any Idol procs. So effectively 1355 - Int/3 with the T10 Idol.

• Hamlet · 12/02/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

How decent is this trinket for us?

Nevermelting Ice Crystal - Items - Sigrie

I've been stuck with sundial forever and this should be pretty easy to get, but the use doesn't seem all that great with the 3 minute cooldown.

Bit tricky to evaluate. Will try something more detailed later, but looks weaker than Eye/IDS, probably inline with Sundial. The proc is kind of useless during Lunar, so you'll have to pop it during Solar.

Psykewne · 12/02/09, 10:56 AM

I'm very disappointed by the change to eclipse. Sure it was the obvious change, but i was hoping to see some of our dps moved to other talents/spells to compensate rather than keeping such an investment in eclipse since we'll remain stuck with the issue of very poor damage when eclipse is not up and a very hard time chaining them successfully. (improved insect swarm getting doubled to 2 or 3% per point would have been great as it would emphasise our dots more for example)

Oh well at least we're not getting a nerf now.

Starfox · 12/02/09, 11:03 AM

I updated the SimulationCraft thread today and did runs with 3.2 vs 3.3 for the new eclipse/t8 bonus

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.2.2 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  39081 100.0%  Raid
  10357  26.5%  Druid_T9_00_55_16
  10203  26.1%  Druid_T9_00_55_16_M
   9306  23.8%  Druid_T9_58_00_13_2T8_2T9
   9248  23.6%  Druid_T9_58_00_13

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.3.0 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  39273 100.0%  Raid
  10359  26.4%  Druid_T9_00_55_16
  10196  25.9%  Druid_T9_00_55_16_M
   9530  24.2%  Druid_T9_58_00_13
   9221  23.5%  Druid_T9_58_00_13_2T8_2T9

patch 3.3.0 also disables the wise_eclipse option, that's why the 2+2 profile seems to drop in dps although the overall Eclipse+2T8 got a buff

Royalite · 12/02/09, 11:18 AM

It really isn't a disappointing change. It is wonderful that no big itemization changed are needed. So the gear I and others have been working on doesn't need to be revamped especially with something like stacking haste. Any fixes to our haste woes (in the ideas suggested here and eslewhere) would have made our preparations for ICC more difficult with more QQing on how moonkins are not ready in comparison with other classes for ICC raiding.

It was a good idea to save the major changes for Cat when we have a progression reset and give us a band-aid for now. And with some kins experiencing a possible dps increase over 3.2 is unexpected and certainly welcomed.

Druidark · 12/02/09, 3:21 PM

With the Wise Eclipse mechanic gone at 3.3, and that a good amount of boomkins will loose/be further away from the lunar crit cap. Haste trinkets such as scale of fates should now rise in value again? In 3.3 it will become more common to have several starfires cast outside the lunar eclipse trying to proc solar.