Moonkin Raiding - Page 18

Lord BEEF · 01/05/09, 2:10 AM

I'm starting to think that the mana return from moonkin form needs to be nerfed at high levels of gear.

Wrath crits are returning more mana to me than the spell cost in the first place (something like 379 to cast, and I'm getting like 403 mana back). Starfire crits are returning close to 80% of the cost.

If you look at the Shaman and Paladin healing talents and abilities that function from crits, they're a fixed cost reduction or % of mana cost, not a % of total mana. I think they may need to do that for moonkin as well.

Lilija · 01/05/09, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Of the accomplishments you listed:
--2 do not in any way strain the DPS capabilities of a group that's moved fully from level70 gear to level80 gear (PW/Thaddius). Thaddius is even more notable because the Treants don't benefit from Charge buffs, so the contribution of Brambles to your DPS is miniscule.
--For 5-man Malygos, the only known strategy involves maximizing the ranged burn on Malygos as he flies away at the end of the P1. The Treants are useless.
--Sarth3D is the hardest encounter in the game, and involves tight single-target DPS burns. But, it also involves AoE, and so adding 30% and Clearcasting to your Hurricane is far more valuable than adding a few thousand total damage against Tenebron.

I wasn't talking about brambles at all so I don't really understand what are you refering to. What I ment was that it is better to use single target dps buffing talents rather than AoE. Eventually, while reducing mana talents getting more AoE burst should be benefitial but not on the cost of single target dps.

As for Sarth+3D I still thing that burning the dragons faster gives more to the fight than 30% more AoE from the moonkin.

Now about the above need of nerf for moonkin mana regen - that would be a kill for 10 mans since you can't always have replenishment there and mana from crits in moonkin's main mana regen source.

Angelfire · 01/05/09, 5:09 AM

Hey, thought I'd post my own WWS and get some comments:
Wow Web Stats
I know my spec is not optimal, but for the most part my mana pool is still not stable, even if I do get an SP/Shaman like I did in this run, so this will change once I have more spirit/crit.

What I'm concerned about is the DoT uptime, especially IS. I guess it's because my rotation is MF -> IS -> SF (I don't have eclipse yet, see my mana and crit issues, will get it as soon as I can spec out of mana talents), so that I only refresh IS when MF falls off, which means a long time without it. Would you recommend to change it and apply 2X IS per MF cast?

Lilija · 01/05/09, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Angelfire

What I'm concerned about is the DoT uptime, especially IS. I guess it's because my rotation is MF -> IS -> SF (I don't have eclipse yet, see my mana and crit issues, will get it as soon as I can spec out of mana talents), so that I only refresh IS when MF falls off, which means a long time without it. Would you recommend to change it and apply 2X IS per MF cast?

Personally I would do exactly the same. The more breaks you have in SF spamming the worse it is for your dps (mostly due to latency).

Ashaera · 01/05/09, 5:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I'm starting to think that the mana return from moonkin form needs to be nerfed at high levels of gear.

If we are meant to use mana regen talents then you are very right - Its allready more than 50% of my mana return & my gear is hasteorientated. As long as moonkin form remains unchanged they I cant see moonkins in guilds with strong dps ever needing mana talents.

Another missing moonkin nerf seems to be Hurricane damage - Buffed with gale winds its practically as good as volley now, but only volley is being nerfed. When I had Gale Winds I was litterally destryoing damagemeters on trash, last clear I was 3rd without it.

Over a full instance Gale Winds is surely a better talent choice than Brambles - Right now it really doesnt matter though, both options have arguments in their favour, people just need to be aware of why they opt for 1 or the other. In the hunt for a sub 2min Patchwerk kill my choice is very clearcut, if your goal is faster clearing times then Gale Winds is by far the best.

ATheGreat · 01/05/09, 5:43 AM

to be honest, i don't see why there's actually a debate regarding this, because as you said, the better our gear gets, the less we need regen talents, and i HIGHLY doubt that the people that are looking for the sub two minute pw kill are the same people that need a lot of regen talents in their build.

basically if you're not taking mana regen, you can get both and we can all go to sleep happy and satisfied.

Gormane · 01/05/09, 6:04 AM

A small addition regarding the usefulness of Typhoon, I find it a lot of fun to kite the zombies during the 10 man Gluth encounter, for which I find Typhoon very useful. And depending on the raid composition, there may not be anybody else to do the kiting.

Lilija · 01/05/09, 6:27 AM

Originally Posted by Gormane

A small addition regarding the usefulness of Typhoon, I find it a lot of fun to kite the zombies during the 10 man Gluth encounter, for which I find Typhoon very useful. And depending on the raid composition, there may not be anybody else to do the kiting.

Quite interesting solution

But tell me then, what do you use for most effective zombie "catch"? Moonfire for sure would agro them fast but my owl experience tells me that spamming it no matter for what reason is very harsh for mana.

Lord BEEF · 01/05/09, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Lilija

Now about the above need of nerf for moonkin mana regen - that would be a kill for 10 mans since you can't always have replenishment there and mana from crits in moonkin's main mana regen source.

Yeah this is something I'd definitely like to see addressed, the huge difference in mana management between 10 and 25 mans.

In my 10 man, I'm missing a second paladin blessing for kings or wisdom, and a mage so we have no intellect buff and I'm down 10% crit.

I actually like to have intensity and dreamstate for 10 mans, while in 25 mans I need nothing at all. Not sure what they can really do to solve this beyond spreading out the raid buffs further.

Nitz · 01/05/09, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lilija

Moonfire for sure would agro them fast but my owl experience tells me that spamming it no matter for what reason is very harsh for mana.

I did it as a resto druid in Naxx 10 since our mages failed at kitting, mana wasn't really an issue. I think moonkin form built-in regen will allow you to last enough time, with Innervate and a pot.

Trouble · 01/05/09, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I'm starting to think that the mana return from moonkin form needs to be nerfed at high levels of gear.

Wrath crits are returning more mana to me than the spell cost in the first place (something like 379 to cast, and I'm getting like 403 mana back). Starfire crits are returning close to 80% of the cost.

If you look at the Shaman and Paladin healing talents and abilities that function from crits, they're a fixed cost reduction or % of mana cost, not a % of total mana. I think they may need to do that for moonkin as well.

I definitely agree with this. I'm down to nearly no talent points in mana regen and I still can't run out of mana if I want to versus a single target and don't have much trouble AoEing a lot. We're due for a nerf in the mana regen department and I'm wondering how long until it comes.

skeldi · 01/05/09, 5:39 PM

I'd like to interject my opinion on Typhoon if I may:
There is no single larger source of damage per second cast a moonkin can put out against several mobs (let's say 3+) than with Typhoon. Combine this with the fact that it has 0 diminishing returns (will hit 3 mobs each for 1500, will hit 30 mobs for 1500 each), it is an enormous source of aoe damage. I think it's foolish to not invest 1 point for an amazing aoe talent.

Okku · 01/06/09, 10:42 PM

Can anyone give me their thoughts (or some math) regarding when Haste becomes more valuable then SP? I've searched far and wide and can't seem to find any discussion about itemization in the higher SP ranges (2.2k+). I'm using a pretty standard (IFF)IS>MF>W>SF rotation and I've seen modest dps gains in regemming to more Haste, but before I go all in haste-wise I was wondering if there was a consensus on the topic.
My apologies to any who can link me to a thread regarding this subject.

• Adoriele · 01/06/09, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Okku

Can anyone give me their thoughts (or some math) regarding when Haste becomes more valuable then SP? I've searched far and wide and can't seem to find any discussion about itemization in the higher SP ranges (2.2k+). I'm using a pretty standard (IFF)IS>MF>W>SF rotation and I've seen modest dps gains in regemming to more Haste, but before I go all in haste-wise I was wondering if there was a consensus on the topic.
My apologies to any who can link me to a thread regarding this subject.

Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion, and things haven't changed much since. I may be able to use a similar trick to coax those values out to the one I used to skip all the messy math on scaling numbers, but it's gonna be a while until I can research it. Good news is that if I can, it'll be rotation-specific, like the scaling numbers, something I'd never have been able to do manually.

Humbaba · 01/07/09, 11:25 AM

Given the generally accepted moonkin rotation of IS/MF/W into SF eclipse, SF during cooldown, repeat, what does this correspond to in Rawr's moonkin module? What's the difference between say "IS/MF/W RDPS" and "IS/MF/W DPS"? Is any of this documented somewhere and I just missed it?