Moonkin Raiding - Page 180

Librarybook · 12/23/09, 12:37 PM

Perhaps Nibelung will become more appealing after haste and crit soft caps are reached.

Latas · 12/23/09, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Talsh

I'm pretty sure it will be entirely possible to come up with a BiS list that has no pieces with spirit gear on it, which I believe will still be optimal after we inevitably pass both the haste and crit soft caps. There are so many well-itemized drops throughout ICC (and with badges) that it seems like we might literally have zero spirit from gear. This makes me wonder about mana regen.

I love WrathCalcs, but I'm not totally confident how reliable it is on mana consumption/longevity since it has never really been an issue in the past (and thus I have never really even tested the accuracy of WC's regen stats), but now, I'm starting to put some thought into it. In non-AoE fights, I'm never even close to OOM, and I can't imagine that changing as we progress into ICC. On older fights where mana was an issue (like yogg during its learning stages, and still during anub), I would toss a point into intensity. But now, with no spirit from gear, will it be worth switching to <gasp> Dreamstate instead?

I really don't mean to dredge up the old "which is better" debate that raged for the first month of WotLK, but I think the question might need some re-examining with the fact that our spirit will be way, way down.

Or, am I just over-thinking this? With the huge crit percentage we'll have, will OOC, moonkin aura, and replenishment be enough to keep us going on longer fights?

As it is most high end moonkins already skip intensity so spirit provides 0 in combat regen for them. Pretty much all of our regen needs are handled primarily through the regen on crit and to a lesser extent replenishment.

Originally Posted by Librarybook

Perhaps Nibelung will become more appealing after haste and crit soft caps are reached.

As has been said before in this thread, just reaching the softcaps does not make haste or crit useless, just not as incredibly useful as they are before the caps. After the caps they pretty much just go down to normal dps values.

Librarybook · 12/23/09, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Latas

As has been said before in this thread, just reaching the softcaps does not make haste or crit useless, just not as incredibly useful as they are before the caps. After the caps they pretty much just go down to normal dps values.

I point out the obvious and you refute that. Ok, lets go into more detail.

First off, crit and haste do not go down to "normal dps values", they become less useful for us. Once crit cap is 100% on lunar eclipse, further crit is less valuable because it will no longer benefit us during lunar eclipse.

Once haste no longer benefits wrath, it becomes less useful for us.

A staff that trades out both haste and crit for a proc that relies on neither to increase dps might be worth a little more to a moonkin that has reached the soft cap for both haste and crit. I mention this because right now Nibelung doesn't seem that good, however i might rethink its value and compare the math once crit and haste have decreased value from the soft caps.

Zifrelm · 12/23/09, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Librarybook

I mention this because right now Nibelung doesn't seem that good, however i might rethink its value and compare the math once crit and haste have decreased value from the soft caps.

Exactly. This is why I want Nibelung.

Conquistador · 12/23/09, 4:39 PM

Well the difference in stats is:

-118 Crit
-68 Haste
-77 SP (difference of -118, but add 41 for the extra 18 for the staff enchant and 23 for the extra socket)
-38 Int (~.245% crit or ~11 crit rating after kings)
-66 Spirit (which is an extra ~21 SP after kings)

So it's a question of whether or not the Val'kyr is worth 129 Crit, 68 Haste, and 98 SP after the Crit and Haste caps have been reached.

Bockbear · 12/23/09, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Conquistador

Well the difference in stats is:

--38 Int (~.245% crit or ~11 crit rating after kings)

So it's a question of whether or not the Val'kyr is worth 129 Crit, 68 Haste, and 98 SP after the Crit and Haste caps have been reached.

The 38 int is an extra 5 or 6 spell power as well.

If you take spell power as being a conservative 1.2 DPS, just the 103 you have calculated from that stat is 120 DPS, which is about what I'm seeing for average Nibelung procs, given that the Valky'r tend to die quickly. If you get lucky, you can get 250-300, but that's going to be the exception rather than the rule. Unless haste and crit have no value, your numbers indicate that Nibelung is not going to be useful.

rh8452 · 12/23/09, 5:40 PM

We had a demonology warlock get Nibelung primarily for the raw spellpower boost. So far as I understand, Valkyr can proc from DoT ticks making it somewhat ideal for a warlock, especially on AOE fights spamming seed.

The proc amounted to about 1% of his total damage out for an entire raid night, giving about 37k damage on the best and longest fight (heroic beasts).

I can't see how the proc is worth the stat loss even above haste/crit caps. That said -if- it can proc off of the DoT spawned by wrath/starfire casts using 4T10 it may have a vastly higher uptime.

qae · 12/23/09, 9:34 PM

Considering the scaling problems we have with haste and crit, weapons and trinkets with raw dmg proc + spell power seems really attractives indeed (2x reign + Nibelung while haste and crit softcapped might end up BiS). Sadly, as of right now, the Valkyr proc need some fix to be viable. On dummy you can have it doing 4-6% of you dmg, which is great (but maybe not enough?) but in actual fights she dies to easily. On top of that she misses like 15-20% of the time on bosses.

I still use it because it's a fun item, and sometime if you are really lucky with procs and for some reason the Valkyrs don't die you can do a nice dps.. And mainly because the real "hard" content is not out yet so I don't really have to minmax for now.. But as soon as the Hardmodes pop I will most likely get my [Enlightenment] back if the Valkyr doesn't get some AoE avoidance, and maybe more chance to proc and an ICD..

Zarken · 12/23/09, 10:33 PM

I have the 258 Misery's End and 258 Symbol of Trangression and swapping to 264 Nibelung gives exactly the same spellpower in moonkin form. Since I got the staff yesterday I have done some testing.

- Can proc off individual starfall star hits.
- Can proc off each hurricane target.
- Can't proc off dots.
- Can assume 4 pc T10 won't proc it eitherl, still need 2 more pieces to test this one.

If christmas wasn't this week, I would be able to test 2 pc T10 and Nibelung on heroic Anub and see how things go there.

Zifrelm · 12/24/09, 12:43 AM

Sounds like all Nibelung needs is for the valks to be given the same aoe avoidance that "regular" pets do, and it will be perfectly viable.

qae · 12/24/09, 10:58 AM

Well.. another issue is the highly random proc. 1% chance to proc on hit is not something you can really rely on, since you can do a whole fight with 1 valkyr proc.. or 10 with as many as 3-4 at the same time. The best option would be a 30% chance to proc on hit and an icd so we can really expect to see some dmg done.

And the avoidance of course.

Bockbear · 12/24/09, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

Sounds like all Nibelung needs is for the valks to be given the same aoe avoidance that "regular" pets do, and it will be perfectly viable.

This is the best fix from what I can see, and what I have posted on the official WOW forums. I don't really like the randomness of the 1% chance proc, but if the proc has a decent chance of reaching its full 30 second potential, it will be a reasonable trade off. I will still probably go with the 264 MH/OH combo when I can get it, but that will probably be a while because almost every other caster wants it as well, and I did blow 1/4 of my DKP on the Nibelung.

maglor31 · 12/24/09, 4:14 PM

Any suggestions on upgrades as far as tier10 goes for me? I have access to trophies if upgrading some of my 232 tier pieces would be beneficial. Rawr tells me the biggest tier upgrade right now is the 254 pants BUT it's obviously not assuming upgrades from there on out. Any input is great.

rh8452 · 12/24/09, 4:54 PM

I'm not sure if giving valkyr AOE avoidance will ever occur or be necessary. Blizz has essentially stated that they feel items like Nibelung are meant to be "fun" more than practical from a minmax standpoint. If 4pc T10 causes a dot that ticks every second for 6 seconds, occuring with every wrath and starfire cast, that's an awful lot of dot ticks for valkyr to proc from.

Over 60s, assuming a relatively standard cast sequence and no movement, you can expect to get roughly 30-35 wrath casts, 9-12 starfire casts, and a few dot refreshes plus one starfall. Assuming 30 wrath casts and 9 starfire casts (minimum), that gives 234 dot ticks, plus 30 IS ticks (assuming 100% uptime) and 25 moonfire ticks (counting initial cast). With starfall, that is 300+ things per minute that can proc this staff. If a valkyr is worth 20k damage on average, and you average 3 per minute, that's 1k DPS.

IF it works with 4T10 it will be ludicrously good. Without 4T10 it kind of sucks.

ed: this math is massively messed up and should be ignored, it'd only apply if 4T10 applies separate dots for each instance of languish (not known yet).

Starfox · 12/24/09, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by rh8452

Over 60s, assuming a relatively standard cast sequence and no movement, you can expect to get roughly 30-35 wrath casts, 9-12 starfire casts, and a few dot refreshes plus one starfall. Assuming 30 wrath casts and 9 starfire casts (minimum), that gives 234 dot ticks, plus 30 IS ticks (assuming 100% uptime) and 25 moonfire ticks (counting initial cast). With starfall, that is 300+ things per minute that can proc this staff. If a valkyr is worth 20k damage on average, and you average 3 per minute, that's 1k DPS.

So two dots that ticks once per second manage to produce 234 dot ticks in 60seconds, that is very impressive for a rolling dot I have to say
T9 druid, 300s fight, single target

138 IS ticks
109 MF, ~13.9 MF hits, 95 Ticks
103 W
 68 SF
 72 Starfall hits
---
490

If it procs off everthing w/o cd you should have up to 1 valkyre per minute (I didn't count trinket procs from RotU)
Replacing 4T9 => 4T10

    tier10_4pc_balance     Count=  0.0| 0.00sec  DPE=     1| 4%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 371  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=107  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1037|305|5498

So that would add another 107 chances to proc