Moonkin Raiding - Page 183

Qieth · 01/04/10, 6:03 AM

I had a fluke of a thought yesterday: Does the value of Reign of Death decrease with the more haste we have?

With 437 haste - and a bit of lag - i could still manage to get a Mote of Flame at every starfire during lunar eclipse. With no lag, this would obviously be around 401 haste rating. I am currently contemplating not using my rep ring (which brings me to 497 haste rating) and instead using my Firestorm Band (H) just for the extra crit, and to reduce my haste a bit. The difference in the cast time on starfire is about -0,04 seconds, but i notice that with 437 haste, i would usually stack up motes regardless, due to latency.

So lets make it really simple: Imagine 2.1 second starfires (A) versus 1.9 second starfires (B). With A, you would get a mote at every single starfire (assuming lunar eclipse), so every 2 seconds. With B, you would be casting starfire too fast for the iCD on the motes to be up, and it would require two starfires (B), or 3,8 seconds per mote. This effectively halves the benefit from the proc on RoD.

But is this significant on our damage? The damage from Pillar of Flame is 3-5% on any given fight (not superchecked, I just remember a few recounts from yesterday), but if we assume 7.000 DPS, that is still 200-350 DPS.

--

This sort of leads back to my earlier comments regarding the value of crit versus haste after the soft caps has been reached. Assume going from 400-500 haste, the extra 100 haste would only give you slightly faster starfire casts, but nothing to significantly impact your DPS. You'd need upwards of 750 haste to get another starfire in during an eclipse. Or am i wrong? Does a mere 100 haste over the soft cap contribute significant damage?

Basicly, i couldn't find any conclusive answers to stat weighs after soft caps. Assuming 750 is correct, there are three scenarios:

- Stack crit over soft crit cap, to benefit wrath crits, 4pt10 procs and faster eclipse procs.
- Stack haste to get it above the point where you are succesfully getting another starfire in during a lunar eclipse.
- Stack crit until you are able to reach said amount of haste, and then keep crit around the soft crit cap.

• Hamlet · 01/04/10, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by kular911

That is very interesting to know, might be worth taking a look to see if clipping would be worth it in certain situations say less than X seconds left on dot or waiting to see a Proc before Refreshing a dot. I won't have 2p for several weeks though sadly.

We've talked about this a little before, it's probably not going to be worth paying attention to.

It's a bit tricky to fully evaluate the cost of clipping a DoT--it primarily takes the form of extra GCD's used over the long term. A good way of looking at it is to say, if you refresh a DoT with one tick clipped, you trade one tick and one GCD for a full DoT. So in this case of casting a buffed DoT, you want to compare (the full buffed dot - the clipped ticks) to the opportunity cost of one GCD.

IS has 7 ticks. If you clip one to cast a buffed IS, that buffed IS is effectively worth (7*1.15-1) = 7.05 ticks. So it's a wash, and will be a loss if you clip more than one. Essentially same result for Moonfire. (It's actually more complicated than this, since you want to compare those 7.05 IS ticks to the DPET of whatever else you would have been casting, but that will complicate things massively without changing too much in the end).

Originally Posted by Qieth

I had a fluke of a thought yesterday: Does the value of Reign of Death decrease with the more haste we have?

With 437 haste - and a bit of lag - i could still manage to get a Mote of Flame at every starfire during lunar eclipse. With no lag, this would obviously be around 401 haste rating. I am currently contemplating not using my rep ring (which brings me to 497 haste rating) and instead using my Firestorm Band (H) just for the extra crit, and to reduce my haste a bit. The difference in the cast time on starfire is about -0,04 seconds, but i notice that with 437 haste, i would usually stack up motes regardless, due to latency.

This has been talked about a little bit before. The basic idea is right--Reign will drop in value at high haste. The hard part is having any idea exactly where (i.e. at what value of haste) this happens. But assuming your haste is high or low enough that you can consistently see yourself either always getting or never getting consecutive Reign procs, the effect is easy to compute. WC models it now--the location of the switch in behavior is basically a guess, but the DPS on both ends should be pretty accurate.

This sort of leads back to my earlier comments regarding the value of crit versus haste after the soft caps has been reached. Assume going from 400-500 haste, the extra 100 haste would only give you slightly faster starfire casts, but nothing to significantly impact your DPS. You'd need upwards of 750 haste to get another starfire in during an eclipse. Or am i wrong? Does a mere 100 haste over the soft cap contribute significant damage?

Only reiterating briefly what I've said many times, I've never seen any value in worrying about haste breakpoints based on trying to fit in integral numbers of casts within X time. The scenario would have to be much more consistent and strictly timed even than it is now to start making good predictions about that.

Tuffhead · 01/04/10, 11:02 AM

I don't quite see how people can keep there haste low for the 401 cap with out picking up alot of spirit. From my understand Haste is always > Spirit even when over the softcap? My haste is 750ish and I can't see a way to get it closer to 400. I do plan on replacing the trinket but even that dump of 84 does not seem like much. Saw 4 Spyglass drop so far but luck has not been on my side.

Kaug · 01/04/10, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Can it be worth giving up a point in BoP to increase the hit cap? If you need both Typhoon and Gale Winds, you have to give up a point in IIS (see my current spec). So one added talent point would have some value (note: giving up a point of CF is actually less of a DPS loss than IIS, but you might not want to give up pushback resistance).

One point of IIS is worth around 53 DPS (my current gear); one point of BoP is worth 53 hit rating. So if you're giving up a stat that's worth less than 1 DPS/point, it can be worthwhile. Spirit is worth well under 1 DPS/point. Haste and crit are almost exactly 1 DPS/point (post-cap), and so probably not worth it (the process is slightly inefficient since you lose some spellpower regemming, and an extra point of IIS also lowers your crit cap).

In short, excess hit rating can be considered roughly on par with post-cap haste and crit, and better than spirit, up to the 1/2 BoP cap of 315 hit rating.

You could also take a point from Nature's Reach.

Pythanamus · 01/04/10, 12:23 PM

I might be missing out on this, but couldn't find any real pages that gave me a big enough impression about this.

If we consider we have reached the yellow haste cap at 401 haste, would this be the time for start stacking up spirit / crit items, or would you still prefer crit/haste items for the SF ecl.? In case we aiming for spirit we'll up our overall dmg by a tiny tiny bit, but lowering our starfire cast would up our dps aswell. As one said 850 haste was needed for this to be viable due to the short eclipse and wouldn't therefore not be able to cast the last SF within the ecl.

My question is how much haste is okay, and when how much is too much?

This is mostly for gear selection i'm thinking, since in ICC we can stack our gear up to like 750 haste and 1400 crit rating when going around the spirit items.

maglor31 · 01/04/10, 4:29 PM

So are we saying [Leggings of Woven Death] are BIS as of now? Yes the tier pants give a lot of people upgrades quickly but when we get the t10 set are they going to still be an upgrade over the tailoring pattern???

Beargarden · 01/04/10, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pythanamus

I might be missing out on this, but couldn't find any real pages that gave me a big enough impression about this.

If we consider we have reached the yellow haste cap at 401 haste, would this be the time for start stacking up spirit / crit items, or would you still prefer crit/haste items for the SF ecl.? In case we aiming for spirit we'll up our overall dmg by a tiny tiny bit, but lowering our starfire cast would up our dps aswell. As one said 850 haste was needed for this to be viable due to the short eclipse and wouldn't therefore not be able to cast the last SF within the ecl.

My question is how much haste is okay, and when how much is too much?

This is mostly for gear selection i'm thinking, since in ICC we can stack our gear up to like 750 haste and 1400 crit rating when going around the spirit items.

In any list of gear I make, I always end up getting around 750-800 haste rating, and it makes me wonder if [Dislodged Foreign Object] will actually become a very handy item for us, pushing as well above 850 and almost to 1k haste.

debulla · 01/04/10, 6:45 PM

Hi,

i was twiddling around with the Dislodged Foreign Object in Rawr, which hasn´t been implemented fully yet.
[Dislodged Foreign Object]

I managed to model it this way:
-Haste static 155 (was already implemented)
-For the procc i chose special effect and calculated the spellpower which could be gained during these 20s and averaged it, resulting in 577,5 spell (=105*(20+18+16+14+12+10+8+6+4+2)/20s)
Trigger: Spellhit
Duration: 20s
Cooldown: 45s
Chance: 100% (until we know the exact values, same for InnerCD) (changing to 50% decreased OverallDPS by just 14dps?)
Stacks: 1 (or 10 stacks * 57,75 spell, it does not matter)

With these strat it might become our best trinket, ~160dps better than Reign of the Dead.258. With an inner CD of 60s (now common inner cd?) it would be slightly behind RotD.258, but better than Muradin.264 by a small margin (~30 dps). I simulated it with 264-Gear.

Pythanamus · 01/04/10, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Beargarden

In any list of gear I make, I always end up getting around 750-800 haste rating, and it makes me wonder if [Dislodged Foreign Object] will actually become a very handy item for us, pushing as well above 850 and almost to 1k haste.

For gear selection you should in my opinion always go for crit items on every single part of your gear. Haste / hit or haste / spirit- items are really bad since we're capping haste at a very low amount. And if we don't want Wrath to become a spell we're only using to procc the lunar eclipse, then we should go away from that trinket. Instead go for the crit stacking SP from boats on 10 man icc. I'm sure they will be stronger in the long term, but it's just my guess as we speak. And i'm sure it'll benefit other classes a lot more than the moonkin.

Pythanamus · 01/04/10, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by debulla

Hi,

i was twiddling around with the Dislodged Foreign Object in Rawr, which hasn´t been implemented fully yet.
[Dislodged Foreign Object]

I managed to model it this way:
-Haste static 155 (was already implemented)
-For the procc i chose special effect and calculated the spellpower which could be gained during these 20s and averaged it, resulting in 577,5 spell (=105*(20+18+16+14+12+10+8+6+4+2)/20s)
Trigger: Spellhit
Duration: 20s
Cooldown: 45s
Chance: 100% (until we know the exact values, same for InnerCD) (changing to 50% decreased OverallDPS by just 14dps?)
Stacks: 1 (or 10 stacks * 57,75 spell, it does not matter)

With these strat it might become our best trinket, ~160dps better than Reign of the Dead.258. With an inner CD of 60s (now common inner cd?) it would be slightly behind RotD.258, but better than Muradin.264 by a small margin (~30 dps). I simulated it with 264-Gear.

In theory you're prolly right, but like i said in the post just above the haste is actually an issue, since we're only benefitting from it 50 % og the time. where crit is what our entire rotation is about, to proc eclipses as fast as possible. and keep up nature's grace. But how much haste did you have on that sheet at that test?

debulla · 01/04/10, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pythanamus

In theory you're prolly right, but like i said in the post just above the haste is actually an issue, since we're only benefitting from it 50 % og the time. where crit is what our entire rotation is about, to proc eclipses as fast as possible. and keep up nature's grace. But how much haste did you have on that sheet at that test?

I got fully raidbuffed with Muradins.264, Ashen Band Ring.277 as single item above 264, RotD.245 and LunarFury-Idol.245 equipped:

4051 spell
266 hit
1046 crit
754 haste

Wrath still profits from this haste. As you mentioned, NG has to be up. While moving, the buff could easily expire, bringing the GCD back to >~1.1s.

I simulated the also unimplemented [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich], which, at a guessed procrate of 30% (one comment at wowhead states this) is far beyond all other options.

Videl · 01/04/10, 9:40 PM

A lot of other trinkets implemented in 3.3 have proven not to follow the standard absurdly high proc rate + 45 second ICD model of most past trinkets. I wouldn't blow all your DKP until we see some test dummy work on it if you are in that situation.

Also while we're still stuck in this frustrating love/hate relationship with haste, a lot (all?) of other casters are really loving it right now. If you're in a situation where you're looking at the optimal allocation of that gear it might not be the best thing to look for.

qae · 01/04/10, 9:40 PM

Sadly, [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] will most likely have an ICD of 2mn (or at least 1mn30) or it would just be obscene. Or the 20sec duration could be a typo and end up being a 10sec duration.

Concerning the haste softcap, I think alot of people overreact by saying haste only boost Starfire dmg after the soft cap (leading to other/the same people searching for breakpoints in the value of haste when you can fit another Starfire in you Lunar eclipse). Even considering a 50% chance to crit on all spells that can, you will still have moments when NG drops. Every time you cast IS, move, chain some Starfire while not under the effect of Lunar eclipse, battle rez someone or just have a string of bad luck, you risk having NG droping.

NG is still a "proc". We can assume a theoretical uptime to ease the maths but in a real fight it will drop, and it will drop alot if you have to move (and guess what? You have to). So of course the soft cap remains, and haste loses value after it, but don't just decide that it will only affect Starfire if you are over 401, because every single 1.2sec Wraths you cast when NG drop will add up in the end.

Also, don't forget we do not have pushback reduction on Wrath, so if you take damage (like while Marrowgar is bladestorming) you may want to have a cast time of Wrath <1sec to mitigate the pushback.

Latas · 01/05/10, 4:07 AM

I did some modeling and it seems that the only ICD that doesnt make the phylactery either absurdly powerful or absurdly weak is 90 seconds which also matches the cooldowns of the trinkets they had in sunwell.

Also are we claiming best in slot while ignoring heroic mode loot?

mullie · 01/05/10, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Latas

I did some modeling and it seems that the only ICD that doesnt make the phylactery either absurdly powerful or absurdly weak is 90 seconds which also matches the cooldowns of the trinkets they had in sunwell.

Also are we claiming best in slot while ignoring heroic mode loot?

Think we're keeping it rational until we see some loot from LK/unlocked hardmodes