Moonkin Raiding - Page 187

Fonzey · 01/08/10, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Sitsa

I took 2 points from Gale Winds and 1 point from Nature's Reach to get my 3/3 OF. Gale Winds is only useful on AOE fights and I havent seen one in ICC sofar. And i took one point from NR because it didnt affect my single target DPS.

You're missing IFF, regardless of whether or not you raid with another moonkin or shadowpriest - you're missing 3% crit there.

Sitsa · 01/08/10, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Fonzey

You're missing IFF, regardless of whether or not you raid with another moonkin or shadowpriest - you're missing 3% crit there.

Well that was my trash/aoe specc. I respecced so I have it again.

Ezoleet · 01/08/10, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sitsa

I took 2 points from Gale Winds and 1 point from Nature's Reach to get my 3/3 OF. Gale Winds is only useful on AOE fights and I havent seen one in ICC sofar. And i took one point from NR because it didnt affect my single target DPS.

OF is a mixed bag really, I sometimes play with it on, sometimes off. Doubt I would sacrifice 1 point in Nature's Reach, because some fights, like Putricide, I need be able to as fast as possible re-position myself to max range to be able to quickly target the oozes, otherwise I am spending more time on the move to meet range requirements which is a much bigger dps drop. On fights I usually hug, I need the extra threat reduction from NR, remember the caster 30% threat penalty at melee range, which we can normally cope with when having 2/2 NR, but if you're in the top 10 knocking back 7k+ dps, you will hear threat warnings a lot more.

Whenever I go with 1 pt OF, I have recently chosen to sacrifice Gale winds, and so far it is not up enough times to entirely justify, I still fiddle though. I am curious however to see what a 3/3 OF does to proc rate, but I am unwilling atm, to sacrifice any other points during ICC raids to test this out. The problem with OF usage, is that it requires a lot more skill to utilize and the proc rate is quite unpredictable, I would not recommend it to most moonkin who are struggling to justify their raid spots due to its the low actual dps output when compared to others on most ToC and ICC fights. I notice a lot of guilds sacrificing the Moonkin instead of say the ele shaman or shadow priest, compare this to Naxx time in 3.0 when if you were good you were always taken.

On the official forums GC has mentioned buffing warlocks and helping ele shaman, I am sure they know the relative popularity and general performance of moonkins is not high and would include us in their plans to buff. Our biggest issue I feel is movement/interruptions, where we really lose out much more so than other casters, so we are seldom hitting our standstill dummy/patchwerk dps target which is where our dps is balanced against. I still think and hope that something like allowing Eclipse procs to enable you to cast on the move with the relevant enhanced spell is allowed. Should compensate us for the current movement penalty as a hotfix till cataclysm. We'd be a bit more like affliction warlocks, a bit more mobile even though you must stand still when casting the other spell and all when there is no eclipse. It seems a double blow to have a lower dps spec receive such a huge penalty for movement, and should be all the buff a pvp moonkin can take for the conclusion of WotLK. Seems the only reasonable fix without a spec overhaul.

Finally Araweithon, have you done any numbers on the [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich]? I'm curious to see if it is a significant enough improvement on 2x Reign or Reign+spy glass 264. I'm thinking it is also a better upgrade for us than [Dislodged Foreign Object] but can't really prove anything.

Sitsa · 01/08/10, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ezoleet

OF is a mixed bag really, I sometimes play with it on, sometimes off. Doubt I would sacrifice 1 point in Nature's Reach, because some fights, like Putricide, I need be able to as fast as possible re-position myself to max range to be able to quickly target the oozes, otherwise I am spending more time on the move to meet range requirements which is a much bigger dps drop. On fights I usually hug, I need the extra threat reduction from NR, remember the caster 30% threat penalty at melee range, which we can normally cope with when having 2/2 NR, but if you're in the top 10 knocking back 7k+ dps, you will hear threat warnings a lot more.

Good points, respecced to 2/3 OF.

Fonzey · 01/08/10, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sitsa

Well that was my trash/aoe specc. I respecced so I have it again.

Apologies, didn't realise you were hardcore enough to have a trash spec

Back on the OkF topic though - I've studied my logs and in the three Festergut attempts we had - I procced OkF only twice, each time from the vile gas 'vomit'. My numbers from wednesday give me 1.5% DPS increase (average) across Marrowgar / Deathwhisper and Festergut, and of course 0% on the others.

I certainly wouldn't rate this above 30% threat reduction, though I do plan to drop typhoon and move up to 2/3 OkF.

• Hamlet · 01/08/10, 9:22 AM

Woven Death: they're a good piece, and a nice upgrade for anyone who never got Awakening. Just weren't relevant to what I was doing then, which was finding the best items long-term. I'm sure a lot of people will wind up buying T10 legs last because they have Woven Death (but for some others, T10 will be a nice hit upgrade, depending on what drops you've gotten).

OF: The main issue is whether there are points to spare anyway. If Gale Winds is useful anywhere in the zone, then you don't have anything left for filler talents. But, if no fight uses AoE, or if you want to use two Moonkin specs for such a slight DPS gain, then OF will typically be better than Genesis but significantly worse than all the ordinary DPS talents. This question has been asked repeatedly since Naxx, but keep in min, if you want OF to be a 1% DPS increase per point, you need to be getting hit by a proc-eligible effect every 5 seconds. I doubt any fight will come close to that in terms of regular frequency of unavoidable hits.

Trinkets: These new trinkets are all easy to evaluate--they're just spellpower procs you can average out over time. Phylactery is 152 crit and 918*20/90 = 204 spellpower. So it looks more or less identical in value to Muradin's (Heroic). DFO is 155 haste and 105*5.5*20/90 = 257 spellpower. Looks better (under crit cap, might be close). Just toss those numbers into the spreadsheet for a more exact comparison.

Elessare441 · 01/08/10, 9:33 AM

Arawethion i got a question for you.

I see that you have got 2/3 i.insectswarm and Tyhpoon.So basically,are you using your tyhpoon spell in your Dps cycle ? If yes, when do you use it?.

Isn't %1 more wrath dmg and %1 more Starfire crit better than Typhoon?

Cheers,

Fonzey · 01/08/10, 10:09 AM

Typhoon has got no place in a rotation, it's used as a utility spell.

I have Typhoon for the sake of Saurfang and interrupting caster adds/trash. I get alot of use out of the spell to be fair, but for a moonkin tunnel visioning on high DPS - it's not a talent nor spell of choice.

Boosta · 01/08/10, 10:09 AM

I have both[Enlightenment] and [Nibelung]
Rawr is indicating I should use Enlightenment, but after testing both back to back, I’m finding Nibelung to be outperforming Enlightenment, does Rawr take into account the Val’kyr Proc.

Orin · 01/08/10, 10:19 AM

Rawr does not know the math on the Val'kyr proc. You'll need to manually figure that manually into the values.

• Hamlet · 01/08/10, 11:55 AM

You're picking up 100 spellpower going to Nibelung from Illumination. It should be a pretty clear bump up overall.

Ezoleet · 01/08/10, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Fonzey

Typhoon has got no place in a rotation, it's used as a utility spell.

I have Typhoon for the sake of Saurfang and interrupting caster adds/trash. I get alot of use out of the spell to be fair, but for a moonkin tunnel visioning on high DPS - it's not a talent nor spell of choice.

.

I find typhoon useful against Lady Deathwhisper when ads get a bit hectic for sloppy raids, it dazes also. I find it useful for Rotface and Putricide too, where the daze works on all Oozes, and on Rotface helps buy your kiter extra time. Very useful. [can someone verify the knockback on the Rotface slimes, it doesn't knock back the Putricide ones.

I also find Typhoon a dps increase on any AoE mobs, Typhoon does twice the damage of a Hurricane tick, within a certain range of haste, at a hurricane tick a second, Typhoon ... I was just going to say is a gain, but I will have to do little bit of simple maths on this, factoring the effect of your haste rating on your hurricane. The GCD of typhoon without haste is 1.5secs and makes it worthwhile using every time it is off cooldown with hurricane. This should be true up until your GCD is been cut to 1secs, below that point, hurricane gains, as it just ticks for much more than every second.

There is a threshold point where typhoon will no longer be a dps increase to you, for e.g. if you're channelling hurricane with a heroism, or haste pot, in which case no need to typhoon alongside till the effect is done. After that, you may return to using it in your aoe cycle everytime it is off cooldown.

jtalaimo10 · 01/08/10, 5:19 PM

Typhoon only useful on saurfang so far, on lady deathwhisper I don't find it necessary but I can see it's advantages.

qae · 01/08/10, 8:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ezoleet

.
I also find Typhoon a dps increase on any AoE mobs, Typhoon does twice the damage of a Hurricane tick, within a certain range of haste, at a hurricane tick a second, Typhoon ... I was just going to say is a gain, but I will have to do little bit of simple maths on this, factoring the effect of your haste rating on your hurricane. The GCD of typhoon without haste is 1.5secs and makes it worthwhile using every time it is off cooldown with hurricane. This should be true up until your GCD is been cut to 1secs, below that point, hurricane gains, as it just ticks for much more than every second.

There is a threshold point where typhoon will no longer be a dps increase to you, for e.g. if you're channelling hurricane with a heroism, or haste pot, in which case no need to typhoon alongside till the effect is done. After that, you may return to using it in your aoe cycle everytime it is off cooldown.

Actually (as it has been said before) Typhoon is great to use before a Hurricane because it will give you a chance (almost garanteed if 4+ targets which is where you Hurricane anyway) to proc Nature's grace, thus giving +20% haste to your next Hurricane.

So there is no threshold point in haste when Typhoon + NG'd Hurricane is not better than Non-NG'd Hurricane. Well there is one actually, but it would requiert massive amount of haste we could only achieve through special buffs in special fights (like Vezax maybe if there was something to aoe). Not something we can achieve with gear and standard raid buffs.

Of course don't use Typhoon while under the effect of Nature's grace thanks to Starfall. Best burst aoe we can do is : Starfall -> NG'd Hurricane x2 -> Typhoon -> NG'd Hurricane, after that keep using Typhoon between your Hurricanes when possible.

Of course DON'T DO THAT in raid if you didn't glyph it (minor glyph for no pushback).

*edit : did some napkin maths and there might be a threshold in the effectiveness of the Typhoon+Hurricane combo. As long as you have less than 50% haste (ignoring Nature's grace), it takes longer in theory to do a full non-NG'd Hurricane than a Typhoon+NG'd Hurricane, so the combo wins by a wide margin.
However, we have to take into account that there is latency to add between Typhoon and Hurricane, since Typhoon is instant and Hurricane requires 2 clicks to launch, so we have to add whatever connection latency we have and then add some time to place the hurricane. Considering we are very skilled players and all, we can assume a simple 2x connection latency, which would be quite accurate if our mouse is already on the area we will Hurricane upon and we don't have some brain lag.
With a good connection (100ms) this will lower the threshold to 40% haste, and with a standard one (200ms) we drop to 26% haste.

So yeah when the average Joe gets to 30% passive haste he may not gain as much as before doing this over a Hurricane spamm. We may actually all reconsider doing it during heroism/bloodlust at a certain lvl of haste.

Disclaimer : Typhoon+Hurricane combo should still be superior dps after the threshold I just described, it just gradually looses of its power because of the 0.2-0.5sec we loose doing it, and the fact that the gcd of Typhoon doesn't get shorter after 33% haste

Latas · 01/09/10, 10:17 AM

I think the overall point trying to be made by Fonzey is that versus a single target in a non aoe situation one would never use typhoon as part of their rotation.