Moonkin Raiding - Page 197

Zifrelm · 01/21/10, 5:17 PM

With all this talk of dropping dots from various points in your rotations, keep in mind that it's the dots that keep up your idol buff.

Also, I'd challenge you to find an optional talent worth more on single-target DPS than IIS. It's not super great, but it's the better than the alternatives.

Froo · 01/21/10, 5:21 PM

My DFO procs average 58 seconds apart on a dummy.

Edit: Thomppi - DFO doesn't gain stacks like Illustration. It ticks up automatically every 2 seconds.

zang1983 · 01/21/10, 9:17 PM

I tried speccing 3/3 owlkin frenzy just for testing purposes last night, removing 2% hit (I'm past the cap anyway) and gale winds. On our Putri one-shot I only had it proc once, probably when I failed and ate one of them bouncing balls of goo.

However on BQL, now thats a different story. On our first two attemps it proced 13 times, giving a 32% uptime. On the other 4, where we got further, past the air phase, I had a total of 62(!) procs, giving an uptime of 45%! That's a pretty awesome dps increase for just 3 talent points. It's obviously very fight based, but I don't feel as though I'm giving up anything by losing gale winds. Anub is farm content anyway, so opting for that seems pointless to me. the 2% hit however I might have to get back once I make some changes in my gear, but I think maybe 2/3 points in OF is cool, with it's usefulness being very fight dependant. Not sure where to get that last point from otherwise really.

I can't wait til next lockout, to test OF on the other bosses.

Videl · 01/22/10, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Ok, that's what I suspected since it's a "your harmful spells have a chance" effect. Next question: why are proc times looking closer to 50s than 55s if it's a 10% proc chance:
Item - Icecrown 25 Normal Caster Trinket 1 Base - Spell - World of Warcraft

It could be that it is proccing off E&M and glyph of starfire.

Yijiao · 01/22/10, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Froo

My DFO procs average 58 seconds apart on a dummy.

Edit: Thomppi - DFO doesn't gain stacks like Illustration. It ticks up automatically every 2 seconds.

Well, I casted just starfire and just wrath, then DoTs when they came off and each and it appeared to be like this:

Starfire: 57 second average
Wrath: 51 second average
Starfire + DoTs: 53 second average
Wrath + DoTs: 50 second average

Starfire is logically the longest, wrath + DoTs was shorter then wrath, but logically makes no difference. I would attribute the differences to RNG.

Druidark · 01/22/10, 9:24 PM

OF seems to proc like mad for me on blood queen.

• Hamlet · 01/22/10, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Druidark

OF seems to proc like mad for me on blood queen.

Can I just a quick log of any pull of that fight with OF?

Talsh · 01/23/10, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Can I just a quick log of any pull of that fight with OF?

Not sure 100% what you're asking, but here's a link to a log of a BQL fight where we hit the hard enrage. I had 3/3 OF.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

61% uptime on OF. It's definitely a perfect talent for this fight. If you want to browse through our other attempts, I'm pretty sure I didn't think to pick up OF until about attempt #8 or so, as it was before it was being discussed (or at least before I saw it) in this thread.

• Hamlet · 01/23/10, 3:36 AM

Yup, just wanted to totally confirm that it procs from Shroud of Sorrow, thanks.

So far in ICC, it's Owlkin Frenzy: 1, Gale Winds: 0.

• Hamlet · 01/23/10, 4:48 AM

New topic: I am going to change my stance on Glyph of Insect Swarm. After finally thinking about this more and asking for a few other opinions (which I should have done a long time ago), I'm now taking the position that you should not use it in nontrivial content, because the -hit% debuff from not glyphing it is more valuable to the raid than the added DPS is. I know people bring this up every now and then, but it always tends to get lost in a discussion of how to maximize DPS. I've always been skeptical myself that using the Glyph really made sense, but had always basically let it go because there was never a consensus either way.

Facts:
--Using the Glyph provides around 150 DPS. This is compared to a setup where we have Glyph of Starfall instead, but still cast IS (without the Glyph, casting IS is actually roughly a 100 DPS loss, but obviously the whole point of this is to keep casting the spell for its -hit% effect).
--The Insect Swarm debuff is 3% avoidance that works at all times, on all tanks even there are multiples, stacks with all other forms of avoidance, and is not subject to tank avoidance DR. With tanks in the ballpark of 50% avoidance these days, this basically means that 6% of attacks that hit currently hit the tank will miss instead.
--This debuff is unique, save for the Hunter ability Scorpid Sting, which comes at a much higher DPS loss.

Now, people debate the value of tank avoidance--it often changes little in practice since you have to heal the tank just as hard, and it doesn't increase spike survival like armor does. But look at the sheer disparity in numbers: 5-6% of incoming tank damage mitigated, at the cost of 150 DPS out of a raid DPS total that's quickly approaching 150,000. That to me seems like an extremely advantageous tradeoff on any content that's remotely challenging.

I think the only reasons people resist this idea are:
1) We've trained ourselves so heavily to focus on pure DPS maximization, usually under the theory that that's our specialized raid role, while the tanks and healers worry about stability. But there's no actual reason for this. No tank would change their spec/gear to trade 3% avoidance for around 150 DPS while tanking (and no extra threat). The balance is no different when we're making the same decision--what matters is net contribution to the total ability of the raid.
2) People don't want their personal DPS bar to be shorter, often because they don't want to be viewed as underperforming. But your perceived value to a raid will actually go up if you add in the point that you provide a unique debuff. It becomes yet another selling point for including Moonkin in raid (of which there are already many) that are independent of DPS contribution.

Anyway, long post, but this idea always encounters a huge amount of inertia, and I wanted to really spell it out.

galadriel_kr · 01/23/10, 8:21 AM

I've heard that T10-4set bonus is a DOT which is not stacked (not like mage's scorch) by t10-4set user (using faction-change)

he said, within that 4 seconds, if Wrath or Starfire is crit again, that DOT will be initialized too.
also, testing to dummy, it is 1.2% (16501 in 1400k all Damage)
Actually, I confirmed his screenshot.

does anyone know this set bonus exactly?

Aarondf2003 · 01/23/10, 10:34 AM

"New topic: I am going to change my stance on Glyph of Insect Swarm."

Thanks Arawethion for finally pointing this out. As a moonkin raid leader, I've been one of the few promoting this perspective on other Moonkin blogs for quite some time. It needed to be said and summarized here.
As a slight benefit for taking a lower dps Glyph of Starfall, we can be rewarded with a minor increase in angel procs from Neiblung. Having more Starfalls for a fight definitely results in a better opportunity.
Beyond the obvious increased damage a shorter cooldown provides, Starfall's viability increases in ICC encounters as well. It syncs better as a 60 second CD for Deathwhisper add waves, Saurfang Blood Beasts and Putricide's Unstable Experiment add formations (available for each Vile Ooze).
These aren't currently difficult dps situations in normal mode, but having our burst available at the right times definitely helps Moonkins to snatch a larger portion of the available damage pool than we'd have access to otherwise.

aceofsween · 01/24/10, 1:12 AM

Galadriel, I am completely confused by your post, but I'll answer your question...

The Lanquish set bonus acts like a mini Ignite. Every time we crit, 7% of that damage is converted into a DotT. If that DoT is still present when we crit again, the total damage remaining on the previous DoT is added to the new DoT and then split up among each tick. I believe it ticks every 2 seconds, so let me break it down for you.

Assume you first Crit with an 18,000 damage Starfire. The Languish DoT will deal 1260 damage over 4 seconds, split between 2 ticks at 2 second intervals for 630 damage per tick. Now, assume 3 seconds later, you crit again but this time for 20,000 damage. The original Languish dot will have already ticked once (for 630), leaving another 630 damage remaining. The extra remaining damage (630) will be added to the new Languish application (which would be 1400) for a total damage of 2030 damage over 4 seconds or 2 ticks every 2 seconds for 1015 damage.

Here's where it gets fun. Let's assume this a typical Lunar rotation where you get off 7 consecutive Starfire crits averaging 20k damage (to keep the numbers easy) with a cast time of 2 seconds. Because of lag and to better illustration the mechanics of the ability, I'm going to assume that the Starfire Crit will occur just after the Languish tick. So here's how it will look like.

1st 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 700
2nd 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1050
3rd 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1225
4th 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1312.5
5th 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1356.25
6th 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1378.125
7th 20k Starfire Crit
Languish Tick: 1389.0625
Languish Tick: 1389.0625

Total Damage: 149,800
Total Languish Damage 9,800
% of Total Damage: 6.542%
% of Increased Damage: 7%

As you can see, the damage begins to ramp up pretty quickly with the first tick hitting for 700, then the 2nd on hitting for 1050. However, it does start to taper off toward the end, with the last two crits only having a difference of ~11 damage. Someone more versed with infinite series could probably derive the limit of the damage on Languish ticks (assuming there is no hard limit set for the damage), but it's been a long time since my last Calculus class, so I'll save that for someone better suited.

When it comes down to it, the bonus is roughly 7% of 80% of my Starfire damage (nets 5.6%) plus 7% of 55% of my Wrath damage (nets 3.85%). Wrath and Starfire combined make up 75% of my total damage, and they are split about equally for the most part. Part of my damage comes from Reign of the Dead and it makes up 4% of that damage or so. Factoring that out gives me roughly 78% of my damage from Wrath and Stafire (or Wrath and Starfire each contributing to 39% of my damage). This means that (ignoring the static bonus damage Reign) Lanquish gives me a combined bonus of about 3.6855% damage. Obviously, the bonus will appear smaller with Reign of the Dead procs, but I find that to extra damage to water down the true effect of our set bonus.

The only flaw from this is that if anything, it's slightly undervalued. Moonfire currently accounts for about 13% of my damage or so because of the crits from the t9 bonus, which we all know will be nullified by gaining the t10 bonus. This means that Moonfire will represent a smaller percentage of my damage which will in turn mean that Starfire and Wrath will represent a larger percentage of my damage (as will Insect Swarm). However, I am not about to go through and try to extrapolate that number from these figures because I was only after a ballpark number as it is.

Feel free to post any other flaws in my mathematical logic, but I believe these are accurate. This obviously does not offer a direct comparison to the damage gained from the 2pct9 bonus... And I'm just not up for that tonight.

• Hamlet · 01/24/10, 1:36 AM

1) I don't know where you got the "7.38%" from; it doesn't follow from your previous numbers at all. Anyway, the value of the 4T10 is around half that. You can look into WC for more detail.

2) In your example, the limit of the size of the Languish ticks would be 1400. It's a geometric series, which each increase adding half as much as the last. I'm just answering your mathematical curiosity here though, that number has no particular relevance to anything. And in practice, most people have a Starfire cast time of less than 2 seconds, so the Languish is just going to stack up throughout Eclipse and unload the damage when it ends.

3) As far as I know, we have know actual confirmation that this is how the set bonus works. We're just assuming since anything else would be silly. The earliest anyone can have enough Emblems to get the bonus on live is next Tuesday (and I expect someone to confirm this for me that evening!

I can't since I already bought a Resto piece).

4) Languish ticks will probably be subject to partial resists, slightly decreasing its value.

Ishundra · 01/24/10, 11:45 AM

From what I understood by Galadriels post his friend used faction change to reset his raid lockouts and got his 4 pc setbonus already? And he then says that the setbonus is stacked in multiple instances of the dot rather than in one instance of it. At least that's how I understood his post.