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Old 01/29/10, 11:35 AM   #3016
Trynthlas
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
The Venture Co
I recently unglyphed IS and found that maintaining lower uptime in a solo situation does improve my personal dps to a point. However, the 3% dmg and 3% crit from IIS and the 3% hit reduction for keeping it up in a raid environment makes it worth the GCD spent casting it (however I don't refresh during Lunar eclipse). Also as already pointed out, when moving, it isn't like we have a ton of other options of things to use (MF, IS, SF...bout it).


I'm wondering on something else that I'm seeing in Rawr though, regarding the value of Haste vs Crit. I have a rather large amount of haste relative to crit - haste is sitting at 771 just from the gear I have (any orange gems are SP/Crit). However Rawr seems to think that with raid buffs (no Scorch) the Abyssal Rune is better than the Sundial. I'm not sure how lowering my crit (753 with Sundial) and raising haste above 800 at that point is beneficial. WrathCalcs disagrees with Rawr, showing 100dps higher with the crit trinket vs the haste one.

At these levels of haste, is there a boundary I'm sitting on?

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Old 01/29/10, 12:38 PM   #3017
Froo
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
I noticed that too. Could be because Abyssal rune has a 25% proc rate and Sundial 10%.

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Old 01/29/10, 12:39 PM   #3018
Tuffhead
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Trynthlas View Post
I'm wondering on something else that I'm seeing in Rawr though, regarding the value of Haste vs Crit. I have a rather large amount of haste relative to crit - haste is sitting at 771 just from the gear I have (any orange gems are SP/Crit). However Rawr seems to think that with raid buffs (no Scorch) the Abyssal Rune is better than the Sundial. I'm not sure how lowering my crit (753 with Sundial) and raising haste above 800 at that point is beneficial. WrathCalcs disagrees with Rawr, showing 100dps higher with the crit trinket vs the haste one.

At these levels of haste, is there a boundary I'm sitting on?
The difference is not the haste/crit of the two trinkets. Its that the Abyssal rune has a 25% proc compared to the 10% of the Sundial. With out the proc the crit from Sundail would be more but with the proc the Abyssal pulls ahead since it is up alot more.

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Old 01/29/10, 1:48 PM   #3019
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Answering posts so far today.

1) Can we keep the "I tried X setup vs. Y setup on a {target dummy, raid encounter} and {X, Y} was better" posts to a minimum? Very rarely do they actually add any information that anyone has any use for at all.

2) Abyssal Rune has a higher uptime due to higher proc chance (going only be spell data here). If you're testing trinkets in WC, use the spellpower values that I list in the TTT article for each one.

3) IS: I don't really think we should clip it just to maintain 100% uptime. Avoidance isn't HP or armor, it's random in the first place--you're not qualitatively changing its effect by losing a little uptime. Swap Glyphs and play normally.

4) If 4T10 works like Ignite, it wouldn't affect our casting priorities at all. There's no additional gain from maintaining a stack for longer.

5) Movement. That's all true, but: First, there are a lot of times where you are standing still. Second: The theorycraft isn't purely about producing one numerical output--it gives you a lot of information on the relative values of various spells and how the interact (especially WC). This still is important for knowing what to do even in less idealized situations. See the recent discussion on the value of DoT's and casting while moving for an example.

6) DoT priority without Glyph of IS/2T9. Consider it an open question now, I think. Definitely take advantage of movement to cast DoT's without interrupting your Eclipse cycle whenever possible. If this results in lower DoT uptime, I think that's okay. I'm looking forward to the Robot Simulator being polished, as this is the sort of question that a simulator is very good at exploring compared to a spreadsheet.


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Old 01/29/10, 4:01 PM   #3020
Ketrew
Von Kaiser
 
Ketrew's Avatar
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Unconventional Spec and Glyph raid performance

I was browsing some of the top parses for balance druids at WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay and was really impressed with the DPS that Zoomkins from Blood Legions is putting out (#1 Blood-Queen, #1 Rotface, #2 Blood Prince). When I checked out his spec and glyphs I was surprised to see 5/5 Genesis and the Focus Glyph.

Zoomkins Spec:The World of Warcraft Armory - Zoomkins @ Illidan - Talents
Blood-Queen Parse: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...8204#damageout
Rotface Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Blood Prince Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why his spec is performing so well and the merits of using the Focus Glyph over Starfall or IS glyphs.

Last edited by Ketrew : 01/29/10 at 4:09 PM.

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Old 01/29/10, 4:10 PM   #3021
Malcophant
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Mage
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Ketrew View Post
I was browsing some of the top parses for balance druids at WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay and was really impressed with the DPS that Zoomkins from Blood Legions is putting out (#1 Blood-Queen, #1 Rotface, #2 Blood Prince). When I checked out his spec and glyphs I was surprised to see 5/5 Genesis and the Focus Glyph.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why his spec is performing so well and the merits of using the Focus Glyph over Starfall or IS glyphs.
Looking at his recent activity, I'd assume that he reglyphed/respecced for ToGC anub. You'll also notice he specced 2/2 Gale Winds, which you would never take for single target DPS.

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Old 01/29/10, 4:15 PM   #3022
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Focus is actually around as much single-target DPS as Glyph of Starfall. If you see Genesis though, it's probably an Anub spec.

Still, might be interesting to look through a log from someone who's doing really well.

efb


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Old 01/29/10, 7:54 PM   #3023
kerg99
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Hyjal
Nibelung with duel Reigns

I was recently looking the World of logs to compare my performance to other top 10 geared boomkins on my server and found that one particular boomkin seems to have a way higher % of his damage coming from Valk procs.

On my most recent festergut kill the Valks were 7.5% of my damage done and on his the valks were closer to 14%(actual dmg don 185k-385k). I am running about 230 more haste then him so i should be getting more procs just because of more spells cast. He is running 4pc T9 258 and i am running 2t9 and 2t10 with the only other major gear difference is he has duel Reigns and i have 2 crap trinkets.

I am wondering if this is a major RNG swing or does the reign gaining a mote count as another spell cast??

In other fights in the logs he seemed to have more Valk damage then me also but not as drastic a difference.

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Old 01/29/10, 8:22 PM   #3024
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Hah, that's entirely possible. I'd bet the Pillar of Flame does, given what we've seen so far (so much so that immediately upon thinking about it, I want to just add it to the sheet). As far as the Motes, who knows. Someone could test if they wanted.


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Old 01/30/10, 1:10 AM   #3025
Yijiao
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Thunderlord
I figured that I would give a little information about languish...

It does stack, in terms of each additional cast resets the debuff with the additive total of the damage caused.

It ticks at 2 and 4 seconds, but, if you get the tick at 2 seconds then crit, the amount of damage added to your current spell is only half of the total ticking.

So, if you crit with starfire for about 15k(arbitrary number), you get an additional 1050 over the 4 seconds, ticking at 525 at the 2 and 4 mark. If you get a starfire crit before 2 seconds for the same amount, you now have 2100 over 4 seconds, but, if you get it after, the tick will deal 525 damage, and you will only have 1575 ticking over 4 seconds...so on and so forth.

There is also no separation between starfire and wrath, so I suppose you could get to large numbers if RNG had its way...for example, during lunar with hero/haste pots, you could probably squeeze 11-12 starfires into the phase. If you had omen of doom, critting for about 20k during, you would have 12 straight 1400 additions, 16,800 total damage, ticking for 8400 if you didn't crit afterwards. It seems pretty straightforward, and it pretty much equates to 7% increased critical strike damage on starfire and wrath.

EDIT:

Also, in regards to DoTs without IS glyph and 2T9, I would imagine that moonfire will still be worth casting between phases heading into lunar, but would likely be cut out heading into solar because its damage without the DoT critting with only the 5 ticks is roughly on par with insect swarm unglyphed. 6700(is) to about 7000(mf) without any debuffs. When moonfire is extended, it still generates a total of almost 11000 damage, which would almost certainly be worth it.

That being said, if there was a point where the DoTs were completely useless with the exception of accessibility during movement, it would call all glyphs into question...and in that regard, focus/starfall would be better choices with one other. I doubt we will ever get to that, though.

Last edited by Yijiao : 01/30/10 at 1:33 AM.

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Old 01/30/10, 4:22 AM   #3026
Phasmy
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Ketrew View Post
I was browsing some of the top parses for balance druids at WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay and was really impressed with the DPS that Zoomkins from Blood Legions is putting out (#1 Blood-Queen, #1 Rotface, #2 Blood Prince). When I checked out his spec and glyphs I was surprised to see 5/5 Genesis and the Focus Glyph.

Zoomkins Spec:The World of Warcraft Armory - Zoomkins @ Illidan - Talents
Blood-Queen Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Rotface Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Blood Prince Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why his spec is performing so well and the merits of using the Focus Glyph over Starfall or IS glyphs.
As Hamlet noted, he was using 5/5 genesis and the Focus glyph to maximize his damage. The Starfall glyph is superior in most cases since it allows you to cast more Starfalls in an encounter. The focus glyph is only effective if you can be near melee range of the boss and even then provides less dps than the Starfall glyph would have provided.

I don't mean to downplay his skill because his parses are very good but he is not annihilating the rest of the moonkins.
*Blood Queen: He was bitten third in line so he had the debuff up for 3minutes of a 5minute fight. #2 is not even 100dps from him.

*Princes: The #1 spot should have brought you more interest. He maintained 9.8k dps on this fight compared to 9.3k.

*Rotface: He did pretty well on this fight and it is impressive. I'm putting money on high eclipse uptime. He did have some good Val'kyr damage too.


Zoomkins is a good player but he isn't using some "hidden" spec or gear choices to do so well. He double-pots, minimizes movement, and uses instants on the move to maximize his dps. These are all well-known to competitive raiding casters.

So why is he performing so well? Skill, gear, and some luck. Moonkin dps can be very RNG and those #1 spots for moonkins are always changing due to that. When eclipse used to show up on parses online, it was easy to see who got lucky with eclipse and who didn't.

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Old 01/30/10, 6:39 AM   #3027
amped
Von Kaiser
 
amped's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Lightbringer
I wouldn't doubt that having dual Reigns adds a lot of uptime on Valkyr's. I don't have any parses on hand but I know my Val'kyrs sometimes do an extreme amount of damage. This week they did almost 500k on Faction Champs in ToGC and about 315k on Putricide in a 10man kill, each being about 15-25% of my total output.

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Old 01/30/10, 9:46 AM   #3028
aceofsween
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
If Motes of Flame proc Valkyr's then who's to say that the buff from Muradin's Spyglass wouldn't do the same thing?

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Old 01/30/10, 11:19 AM   #3029
Sunfyre
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Ketrew View Post
I was browsing some of the top parses for balance druids at WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay and was really impressed with the DPS that Zoomkins from Blood Legions is putting out (#1 Blood-Queen, #1 Rotface, #2 Blood Prince). When I checked out his spec and glyphs I was surprised to see 5/5 Genesis and the Focus Glyph.

Zoomkins Spec:The World of Warcraft Armory - Zoomkins @ Illidan - Talents
Blood-Queen Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Rotface Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Blood Prince Parse: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why his spec is performing so well and the merits of using the Focus Glyph over Starfall or IS glyphs.
On top of what the poster above me said, you also forget that Zoomkins has such an insane amount of gear that he's well over crit cap, and can afford to lose the 3% crit that's gained from Improved Faerie Fire.

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Old 01/30/10, 11:35 AM   #3030
Sunfyre
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Focus is actually around as much single-target DPS as Glyph of Starfall. If you see Genesis though, it's probably an Anub spec.

Still, might be interesting to look through a log from someone who's doing really well.

efb
I would think Glyph of Starfall would raise your DPS with Nibelung, because you are increasing your chance to proc val'kyrs considerably, especially with any fight that involves adds.

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