Moonkin Raiding - Page 203

Yijiao · 01/30/10, 3:59 PM

I have a hard time believing he could pull 14k in that spec, I would assume he was in another spec for that attempt, almost certainly having owlkin frenzy, which could apply another RNG factor, but even moreso, the interrupt resistance from OKF is invaluable on that fight, especially on wrath if you don't have nature's focus.

I would agree, his gear is good...he has about the same SP/haste as I do, but has 175 more crit rating. That being said, he also has very little spirit, so that doesn't manifest itself in terms of SP on the character sheet, but would in moonkin form, be slightly larger difference buffed.

On another note, I seem him using Boots of the Frozen Seed. I have heroic Unrelenting Storm, and I have been considering a change, but I am having a hard time finding any difference between the two. The obvious bonus, to me, is they have one red/blue, and as I only have 1 blue slot on the rest of my gear, that would be as good as 2 red gems. Any thoughts on the matter?

Sunfyre · 01/30/10, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Yijiao

I have a hard time believing he could pull 14k in that spec, I would assume he was in another spec for that attempt, almost certainly having owlkin frenzy, which could apply another RNG factor, but even moreso, the interrupt resistance from OKF is invaluable on that fight, especially on wrath if you don't have nature's focus.

I would agree, his gear is good...he has about the same SP/haste as I do, but has 175 more crit rating. That being said, he also has very little spirit, so that doesn't manifest itself in terms of SP on the character sheet, but would in moonkin form, be slightly larger difference buffed.

On another note, I seem him using Boots of the Frozen Seed. I have heroic Unrelenting Storm, and I have been considering a change, but I am having a hard time finding any difference between the two. The obvious bonus, to me, is they have one red/blue, and as I only have 1 blue slot on the rest of my gear, that would be as good as 2 red gems. Any thoughts on the matter?

I would think the obvious bonus to his boots would be the haste. Sure, we have a haste cap of 400, but starfire still benefits afterwards.

Yijiao · 01/30/10, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sunfyre

I would think the obvious bonus to his boots would be the haste. Sure, we have a haste cap of 400, but starfire still benefits afterwards.

Which means that it is quite possible that he is using those for Anub, since haste is invaluable for AoE. It is hard to say if he is actually using those are equipping them for that reason, given his current spec.

Exayex · 01/30/10, 6:59 PM

Here's something I've been wondering;

Have we thought about dropping Moonfire from our rotation when we're immobile? This change would, of course, take place after we have 4 piece T10 and the Frost Idol. We've noticed our DoTs aren't scaling well, and we're kind of forced to take IS and iIS due to having nothing better. Instead of letting our IS uptime drop and keeping Moonfire up, would it be a DPS increase to just keep IS up as much as possible, save Moonfire for movement, and move the 2 points from Improved Moonfire to Genesis, and change our glyphs to Insect Swarm, Focus, and Starfall?

Glyph of Focus and Starfire build off of one another nicely, and I think with the high levels of haste we're going to start reaching, plus our high uptime of Eclipse, one DoT would be a lot more manageable than two. Also this spec would work better with Nibelung, I believe.

Yijiao · 01/30/10, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by Exayex

Here's something I've been wondering;

Have we thought about dropping Moonfire from our rotation when we're immobile? This change would, of course, take place after we have 4 piece T10 and the Frost Idol. We've noticed our DoTs aren't scaling well, and we're kind of forced to take IS and iIS due to having nothing better. Instead of letting our IS uptime drop and keeping Moonfire up, would it be a DPS increase to just keep IS up as much as possible, save Moonfire for movement, and move the 2 points from Improved Moonfire to Genesis, and change our glyphs to Insect Swarm, Focus, and Starfall?

Glyph of Focus and Starfire build off of one another nicely, and I think with the high levels of haste we're going to start reaching, plus our high uptime of Eclipse, one DoT would be a lot more manageable than two. Also this spec would work better with Nibelung, I believe.

There is some debate as to whether or not the DoTs are that applicable...iIS points can be siphoned over to Owlkin Frenzy at certain gearing levels with the detriment only being to wrath. Similarly, I agree that some DoT needs to be used from an idol standpoint, but I would still think moonfire with starfire/moonfire glyph is a better bet, especially heading into lunar phases.

shibbytastic · 01/31/10, 1:22 PM

I think the dot refreshing priority can be determined pretty well by using wrath calcs. Unfortunately the determination seems to be very dependent on your own haste and crit levels which is why I'm showing how I came to the conclusion for myself instead of trying to make a general rule.

First we need to always have one dot up for the idol.

Second I'm assuming the use of our traditional glyphs (is, mf, and sf) and a fight where I am standing still.

Looking at MY Rotations and DPS page:

The DPCT for a non-extended moonfire is less than either eclipsed nuke. The DPCT for a moonfire extended once is about the same as an eclipsed nuke, and is much better if the moonfire is extended two or more times.

The DPCT for MY insect swarm is less than an eclipsed starfire, but about equal to an eclipsed wrath.

The DPCT for either dot is higher than the DPCT for either non-eclipsed nuke.

Therefore for a moonkin with my stats it's not worth casting IS during lunar eclipse and it's not worth casting moonfire during a solar eclipse. It is always worth casting moonfire if it's going to be extended. IS is always worth refreshing between eclipse procs (although this is where simcraft info would really help).

This brings up the question: Is it worth investing so many talent points and glyphs into our dots if they are being marginalized do this degree?

Yijiao · 01/31/10, 3:23 PM

Perhaps IS is more valuable than a non-eclipsed nuke, but, by casting IS, you are likely delaying getting into the next eclipse phase, whereas moonfire can at least proc NG with some regularity, which could potentially contribute to getting into the next phase with decent speed...

I am thinking that taking off glyph of IS for starfall, the rotation would be something like this moonfire -> wrath until eclipse -> starfire throughout eclipse and after until solar. If moonfire comes off before solar begins, then you refresh moonfire before starfiring to get to solar again, if it doesn't, you wait until there are about 5 seconds left on your crit buff, refresh, which should be late enough in solar that you should keep the crit stacks, as well as guaranteeing the moonfire will reach extendability with starfire.

It requires you to pay significant attention to your procs, but it is what it is.

Does anyone else feel that our rotation would be much more easily ironed out if the wraths that proc lunar eclipse proc'd it at the same time that they proc'd NG? Part of me doesn't understand why two effects based on critical hits of the same spell apply at different times.

Alafeya · 01/31/10, 3:44 PM

I am personally a bit uncomfortable dropping the core talents that buff DoTs, because as many have said, the current ICC content requires more movement, add switching, kiting, or even puking. DoTs help mitigate the dps reduction on movement-intensive fights. This goes back to the difference between theorycrafting ideal configs and actual experience. There are plenty of times in ICC where a more accurate comparison of two DPCT scenarios goes something like this:

Alternative A: Stand where you're standing and cast wrath or starfire: result, you die.
Alternative B: Move your butt, and renew your DoTs while you're running: result, more dps than being dead.

For that reason, I want a talented and buffed IS and MF. There is a certain portion of most fights where they are all that we have for damage.

Drui · 01/31/10, 4:04 PM

I do only use IS when i have to move with 2t9 2t10, MF only between Eclipses and its really nice. When 4t10 is fixed, i think the best solution will be insect swarm between eclipses if youre at the crit cap and do not use mf anymore.

Yijiao · 01/31/10, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Alafeya

I am personally a bit uncomfortable dropping the core talents that buff DoTs, because as many have said, the current ICC content requires more movement, add switching, kiting, or even puking. DoTs help mitigate the dps reduction on movement-intensive fights. This goes back to the difference between theorycrafting ideal configs and actual experience. There are plenty of times in ICC where a more accurate comparison of two DPCT scenarios goes something like this:

Alternative A: Stand where you're standing and cast wrath or starfire: result, you die.
Alternative B: Move your butt, and renew your DoTs while you're running: result, more dps than being dead.

For that reason, I want a talented and buffed IS and MF. There is a certain portion of most fights where they are all that we have for damage.

and while I agree, this leads, many times, to DoT clipping. Starfall being 30 seconds quicker would add to your tank and spank DPS as well as providing another GCD to use on the run more often. Similarly, by not having your DoTs up while stationary, you can put more DPS into not moving and save your only available spells for when you are moving, meaning that you aren't clipping them, meaning none of your time while stationary was wasted, and this is nearly impossible to model.

There is no right answer at the moment, as it is impossible to determine what will be most effective against most bosses at this point. I am thinking that either could be a viable strategy, but as of yet, I am uncertain which will be most effective.

Obviously, we need to keep one DoT up with less than 15 seconds of separation, and I find that starfire/moonfire glyph combos make that the obvious choice.

zang1983 · 02/01/10, 12:22 AM

Quick question. How would you value the on-use of Nevermelting Ice Crystal? I have a very hard time comparing it to my other trinket options.

• Hamlet · 02/01/10, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by zang1983

Quick question. How would you value the on-use of Nevermelting Ice Crystal? I have a very hard time comparing it to my other trinket options.

Honestly, I never put a huge amount of effort into it. It's pretty bad however you do go about it. At your gear level you have access to a number of better things.

zang1983 · 02/01/10, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Honestly, I never put a huge amount of effort into it. It's pretty bad however you do go about it. At your gear level you have access to a number of better things.

Problem is, the raid drop trinkets I know are upgrades don't drop for us, and there are several guildies ahead in line to get them. The only trinkets in my posession at the moment are Nevermelting and Sundial. In theory even the Abacus I picked up for offspec should be better than Sundial... But I don't know how to calculate the value of Nevermelting. Is it worse than the alternatives, until I can get a hold of Reign, or ICC25 ones? (Which will take a while...)

• Hamlet · 02/01/10, 1:48 AM

Sundial and Althor's should both be better. Try playing with WrathCalcs, even using a generous uptime for the crit effect.

zang1983 · 02/01/10, 2:22 AM

Yeah you're probably right. I used 920x20 / 180 as a static crit value and put that into wrath calcs. Even with that value, and I'm guessing it's more like half of that (?), it was only a marginal upgrade (20ish dps) over Abacus and Sundial, which Abacus being slightly better than Sundial.