Moonkin Raiding - Page 205

Sunfyre · 02/01/10, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Oxyconttin

I just wanted to add to the OF. I recently moved 2 from moonglow (1/3 still) and 1 from IFF (2/3 still) to have 3/3 OF.

I've been running HPoS and testing it's proc rate on Forgemaster Garfrost. I picked this fight in specific because of his AoE aura that deals constant damage (assuming no resists). I don't have a parse, but based on observation in the 3 fights OF proced one time.

Now, I have a 15% chance to activate OF with 3/3. In a fight where I'm taking constant damage I would have expected it to be activated more than once in 3 fights and it may have activated by a trinket and not the AOE. Unlucky? incorrect damage type?

I'll be finishing ICC 10 tonight using this new spec, I'm interested to see it's effect.

Well, okay, first you're trying a heroic, which isn't probably the best test realm for owlkin frenzy.

Second, RNG is a big factor. Forgemaster probably isn't a very long fight.

Thirdly, not all damage procs it. There are some fights, however, where it shines, like Blood Queen, where most people report a 30-50% uptime on it.

Oxyconttin · 02/02/10, 1:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sunfyre

Well, okay, first you're trying a heroic, which isn't probably the best test realm for owlkin frenzy.

Second, RNG is a big factor. Forgemaster probably isn't a very long fight.

Thirdly, not all damage procs it. There are some fights, however, where it shines, like Blood Queen, where most people report a 30-50% uptime on it.

Thank you for that clarification.

Yijiao · 02/02/10, 2:15 AM

Well, we were bored and decided to do Algalon again today, so I decided to test Owlkin Frenzy and a rotation without insect swarm replacing that glyph with starfall. I used insect swarm on the way to portals during big bang, moving out of smashes, but otherwise didn't use it at all.

I have to say, I was quite impressed with the output. I had 8 Owlkin Frenzy procs and put out significantly more DPS than I expected, finishing about 6th in damage done at around 8500 DPS, just behind the top ranged DPS, an arcane mage on the fight.

Algalon has a decent amount of AoE damage, but nowhere near the amount exhibited in many ICC fights.

I dropped two points from iIS and a point from Gale Winds as there doesn't appear to be many AoE heavy fights and Anub doesn't require max potential output anymore.

So far, though, I am pretty impressed with Owlkin Frenzy.

GotlandsUgglan · 02/02/10, 2:30 AM

it is a bit unfair to IS comparing OF towards it. The question is how well did Starfall do on the fight compared to having IS glyphed.

My specc i am using will have 2 or 3 Imp IS and 2 or 3 OF. So OF should not be compared to IS since you can have them both. My concern is how good is a glyphed Starfall versus a glyphed IS.

About dropping IS or MF from the rotation is that not based on the fact that they will be cast during movement of a fight and therefore making their DPET while standing still lower then WrathCalc is showing? While moving any IS/MF cast will be a dps gain(if the dot have ticked once) and therefore the MF/IS cast during standstill was a loss DPET wise.

Zoomkins · 02/02/10, 6:09 AM

Originally Posted by Phasmy

As Hamlet noted, he was using 5/5 genesis and the Focus glyph to maximize his damage. The Starfall glyph is superior in most cases since it allows you to cast more Starfalls in an encounter. The focus glyph is only effective if you can be near melee range of the boss and even then provides less dps than the Starfall glyph would have provided.

I don't mean to downplay his skill because his parses are very good but he is not annihilating the rest of the moonkins.
*Blood Queen: He was bitten third in line so he had the debuff up for 3minutes of a 5minute fight. #2 is not even 100dps from him.

*Princes: The #1 spot should have brought you more interest. He maintained 9.8k dps on this fight compared to 9.3k.

*Rotface: He did pretty well on this fight and it is impressive. I'm putting money on high eclipse uptime. He did have some good Val'kyr damage too.

Zoomkins is a good player but he isn't using some "hidden" spec or gear choices to do so well. He double-pots, minimizes movement, and uses instants on the move to maximize his dps. These are all well-known to competitive raiding casters.

So why is he performing so well? Skill, gear, and some luck. Moonkin dps can be very RNG and those #1 spots for moonkins are always changing due to that. When eclipse used to show up on parses online, it was easy to see who got lucky with eclipse and who didn't.

After the top 3 or so on all of those meters they drop a couple thousand dps which is alot.

Princes I moonfired alot of kinetic orbs to try to save the raid, this is before we knew about the pet thing, and kinetic orbs cant be dotted so I used like 6 or 7 globals to do 300 damage. I'll be ignoring adds hoping for the same rng next week.

Blood Queen, number 2 actually had over an extra minute of bite time and a quicker fight. Just in response to the negative.

But yea that was my anub spec, I was playing with focus because of the timing of the adds coming out usually you end up waiting for them to come out before starfalling anyways so I tried it out.

I use a normal cookie cutter spec and pull from Imp FF to owlkin frenzy. I always raid with spriests.

Right now I've gone to naxx style priority where I'm only using IS during wrath and MF during starfire, the biggest key to the dps is when you refresh them.

Simcraft data showed that refreshing moonfire up untill 4 seconds left on eclipse was the best dpect. Also I usually cast moonfire while solar eclipse is present to chain the extra time up until starfire eclipse ends. Basically only using moonfire when it can be extended. I play to the RNG gods to proc my Lunar eclipse before the unextended moonfire falls off. With crit rates where they are now it isnt that unlikely.

Right now an extended moonfire with 2T9 is the highest dps spell we have but only casted to be extended. When we move to 4piece things change.

From the math I've done and read from people starfall glyph is only on par with IS if there are consistant multiple mobs up when it is on CD, I don't see it really passing IS up completely as a glyph but who knows what will happen. Also I love all of you because I'm no math genius and I love reading all your inputs and suggestions. Peace from a feathered friend.

I used to be in a guild called simple math during ulduar if you follow the boards. Another moonkin you should be watching is Malbuth from gentlemans club he's a beast, my fellow moonkin crush.

klüger · 02/02/10, 6:19 AM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

An observation:
On all these tries 4pc t10, my IS dmg-done was higher then my MF dmg-done (though I always prioritized MF over IS and kept them up at all times, except for IS when less then 5secs left on LE). My explanation for that was that the glyph of SF kept resetting the MF ticks (I had a significant higher amount of IS ticks then MF, even taking uptime into account).

I ran with the standard glyphs, mf/is/sf.

Could it be that MF is worth using only on movement(to keep up old idol), and IS is the one to use between eclipses?

Starfox · 02/02/10, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

An observation:
On all these tries 4pc t10, my IS dmg-done was higher then my MF dmg-done (though I always prioritized MF over IS and kept them up at all times, except for IS when less then 5secs left on LE). My explanation for that was that the glyph of SF kept resetting the MF ticks (I had a significant higher amount of IS ticks then MF, even taking uptime into account).

I ran with the standard glyphs, mf/is/sf.

Could it be that MF is worth using only on movement(to keep up old idol), and IS is the one to use between eclipses?

without 2T9 IS has always more dps than MF, not matter which glyphs are used. IS ticks for a bit less (both glyphed) but ticks every 2seconds.
DPE ranking:
1. MF, 2x extended
2. IS, glyphed
3. MF, 1x extended

Pokerkin · 02/02/10, 12:49 PM

Seeing as someone will probably get a [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] in the near future, does anyone know if it will proc off of Languish?

I haven't been able to find any info about this from anywhere (I'm assuming it's something that will have to be tested).

• Hamlet · 02/02/10, 1:09 PM

No way of knowing that yet, but it would actually have a very small impact on the value of the trinket. Our proc time will be very short compared to the ICD regardless.

Yijiao · 02/02/10, 1:49 PM

Yes, IS is more damage than Moonfire without extension simply because the spell mechanic on IS has 100% spell damage generated going towards the DoT while even with 75% increased on moonfire HoT, it doesn't generate as much damage/spell power on the DoT portion.

That being said, while I like the idea of using IS, going starfall/focus glyph, I find that trying to stay within 18 yards of the boss is, at times, very unviable. If moonfire gets extended more than 50% of the time, it will be more worth it than IS. Secondly, an unglyphed IS on the run will be much more valuable than an unglyphed moonfire, which would be, overall, pretty unimpressive.

I did some languish testing on the dummy today, was able to do 8500 self contained DPS and languish accounted for 5.2% of my damage with a moonfire/eclipse based rotation. I used starfall on CD, but never used trees.

That would make the proc on standing fights worth about 450 DPS. Crit rate was on par with gear, starfire's was a little low, but give or take, not much in the way of RNG over the 5 minutes to think otherwise about. I didn't get a pure lunar 100% crit phase(oddly), so my languish ticks never got about 4k. Either way, it is quite a nice set bonus that scales with gear.

Oxyconttin · 02/02/10, 2:07 PM

One thing I see missing from all talks of dots is the IIS with a 3% damage increase to wrath spells. According to Yijiao

"Yes, IS is more damage than Moonfire without extension simply because the spell mechanic on IS has 100% spell damage generated going towards the DoT while even with 75% increased on moonfire HoT, it doesn't generate as much damage/spell power on the DoT portion."

Wouldn't this coupled with IIS with a 3% damage bonus to wrath make it the best dot? Thus we could remove either the MF glyph or SF glyph while keeping the IS glyph?

This is all assuming you have the IIS.

Zifrelm · 02/02/10, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Yijiao

That being said, while I like the idea of using IS, going starfall/focus glyph, I find that trying to stay within 18 yards of the boss is, at times, very unviable.

Er, what? What spell or effect would make you want to stay within 18 yards of the boss? All our DPS spells, including SFall, have a 36 yard range.

Yijiao · 02/02/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Oxyconttin

One thing I see missing from all talks of dots is the IIS with a 3% damage increase to wrath spells. According to Yijiao

"Yes, IS is more damage than Moonfire without extension simply because the spell mechanic on IS has 100% spell damage generated going towards the DoT while even with 75% increased on moonfire HoT, it doesn't generate as much damage/spell power on the DoT portion."

Wouldn't this coupled with IIS with a 3% damage bonus to wrath make it the best dot? Thus we could remove either the MF glyph or SF glyph while keeping the IS glyph?

This is all assuming you have the IIS.

I don't use improved IS because I moved the points to Owlkin Frenzy. Otherwise, that would affect my decision.

As far as the range thing, Focus increases the damage of starfall by 20% but decreases the radius by 50%, so for starfall to hit a boss, you would have to be within 18 yards of it. Simple glyph knowledge there. I have never used the glyph, so I guess it is possible that it means the splash radius, but I am fairly certain it means the radius from caster.

Zifrelm · 02/02/10, 5:12 PM

Ah, I see. I've always been fairly positive that it meant the AOE splash radius. Reducing the range would be... awful.

• Hamlet · 02/02/10, 5:48 PM

Had someone take a few shots at a dummy just to confirm Languish stacking:
FreeImageHosting.net Hosting Service

((15550+16109)*0.07+248)/2 = 1232
(16750*0.07 + 1231)/2 = 1201
((17208+17223)*0.07 + 1201)/2 = 1805

nice.

She also tried against an 83 dummy and confirmed that it's now not being partially resisted at all, which makes it slightly better than we'd thought; I'll update WC.