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Old 01/12/09, 5:37 PM   #301
Triks
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Cho'gall
Dreamstate, I think a few people in this thread have mentioned it's one of the less useful of the mana regen talents for druids.

That or intensity, either way, I've got neither and have no mana issues, though I do have a good crit rate via my gear

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Old 01/12/09, 5:38 PM   #302
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Rawwaffles View Post
If I were to pick up gale winds, what would I switch out? The World of Warcraft Armory, I can't find anything viable to switch out for the two points and the reason I was saying that 80% was because the guy didn't have typhoon. And if i am to switch into gale winds, I'd most likely pick up typhoon but I still can't see anything I would pull 3 points out for those 3 talents.
Considering your spec is one of the worst I've ever seen, I don't think you've got much place to talk. Pull those points out of DS, there's no way in hell you need the mana regen. Then, do your raid a favor and spec iFF instead of Moonglow and iIS, because even though GC's confirmed my suspicions about iFF intending to check for your personal FF being up, I'm not entirely positive that it does yet.

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Old 01/13/09, 8:08 AM   #303
Munorion
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Silvermoon (EU)
because even though GC's confirmed my suspicions about iFF intending to check for your personal FF being up, I'm not entirely positive that it does yet.
I think GC even said as much - that the check whether it's yours or not might not be done properly.

His latest post (emphasis mine):
I am saying the tooltip, which currently reads: Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increases the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by Faerie Fire.

Should probably read: Your Faerie Fire and Feral Faerie Fire spells also increase the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increase the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by your Faerie Fire or Feral Faerie Fire.

One of the issues we are currently discussing is what to do in the case where someone chooses a talent that they end up not using because someone else in the group also has the same buff of equal or greater potency. To be fair though this is not a new problem. Raids always had to manage buffs like Spirit or Kings that were talented. I think groups usually worked around that by just grouping with the same people a lot and making sure someone had the talent. We are seeing a lot more raids pugged these days, and in any case, you often still want the buff when you are soloing. It is something we're discussing.
It confirms that if you gain the bonus from someone else's FF, it's not intended.


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Old 01/13/09, 12:21 PM   #304
Dirm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Executus
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
E&M is covered by Ebon Plague from an Unholy DK, or CoE from an Aff Lock, though E&M is by far the best option here.
Not that the comparison above is a key point, but it made me curious.

What advantage does E&M have over Ebon Plague to lead to such a strong opinion? I'm aware of these differences:

Ebon Plague has a longer duration, but E&M is reapplied more frequently.
Ebon Plague is AE, thanks to pestilence, while moonkins don't apply E&M at all in AE situations.
DKs start their dps off with a disease, while moonkins generally apply IS and MF first, with the first wrath landing 4-4.5 sec into the fight. (pretty minor, but if you have 8 caster dps doing 5k each it's an extra 20k damage or so, though that's pretty rough math since that's also during rampup time while people are applying debuffs to start the fight).
E&M has longer range (30-36 vs 20). Not sure if this matters on any fight. Perhaps 5-minute Malygos.
Ebon Plague can be applied with an instacast, so you can refresh it while moving (not really sure if there's any fight where this is an issue, unless you're inexperienced with Heigan).

The AE thing is obviously pretty nice when applicable. The other things aren't really big deals (though I do let E&M drop off bosses sometimes, e.g. Grobbulus, where Ebon Plague's longer duration might allow him to keep it up during his absence).

What am I missing in E&M's favor?

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Old 01/13/09, 12:32 PM   #305
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Ghostcrawler followed up and you do indeed get 3% crit regardless of who puts up faerie fire, and feral faerie fire counts as well

I went ahead and looked at this in game, and I am happy to report that I was wrong. Any Faerie Fire should allow you to get the 3% crit, even if you didn't cast it.

So the tooltip should probably read:

Your Faerie Fire and Feral Faerie Fire spells also increase the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increase the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by [anyone's] Faerie Fire or Feral Faerie Fire.

I don't always have the game right in front of me when I am reading forums (most often I am on a painfully topical beach sipping mai tais) so I try not to guess unless I am pretty sure about something. I was pretty sure about this, but I was wrong. It happens. There are like 15,000 spells in the game.

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Old 01/13/09, 12:59 PM   #306
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Dirm View Post
Not that the comparison above is a key point, but it made me curious.

What advantage does E&M have over Ebon Plague to lead to such a strong opinion? I'm aware of these differences:

Ebon Plague has a longer duration, but E&M is reapplied more frequently.
Ebon Plague is AE, thanks to pestilence, while moonkins don't apply E&M at all in AE situations.
DKs start their dps off with a disease, while moonkins generally apply IS and MF first, with the first wrath landing 4-4.5 sec into the fight. (pretty minor, but if you have 8 caster dps doing 5k each it's an extra 20k damage or so, though that's pretty rough math since that's also during rampup time while people are applying debuffs to start the fight).
E&M has longer range (30-36 vs 20). Not sure if this matters on any fight. Perhaps 5-minute Malygos.
Ebon Plague can be applied with an instacast, so you can refresh it while moving (not really sure if there's any fight where this is an issue, unless you're inexperienced with Heigan).

The AE thing is obviously pretty nice when applicable. The other things aren't really big deals (though I do let E&M drop off bosses sometimes, e.g. Grobbulus, where Ebon Plague's longer duration might allow him to keep it up during his absence).

What am I missing in E&M's favor?
Actually, I think you've covered it fairly well, except in the case of two of a given provider in the group. Two Moonkin? No problem, E&M's personal benefit still applies. Two Unholy DKs? You're gonna run into issues where only one will get the personal benefit from EP. I was mainly referring to E&M being much better than CoE of any type, and kinda feel like E&M vs. EP is about a wash, except in AoE.

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Old 01/13/09, 1:10 PM   #307
Eilt
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bloodhoof
So with GCs new post it seems we will get to keep our 3% to crit! iFF (even if you have a spriest to apply the 3% hit) should be a part of every moonkins spec.

I am sure most people had it already, since what testing there was seemed to advocate it working for any FF, but for the few remaining holding out on iFF, you can safely spec into it for a pretty much free 3% to crit.

Last edited by Eilt : 01/13/09 at 1:17 PM.

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Old 01/13/09, 1:20 PM   #308
Cube
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Dirm View Post
What am I missing in E&M's favor?
Depending on the DK rotation and encounter, Ebon Plague may not have 100% uptime. From my own experience, it is very close to 100%, but it's definitely noticeable when it's not up.

I should stress that this is extremely minor-the longest I have seen E&M stay up before it's been overwritten by our DK is around 4 seconds every minute or so. E&M seems to go up and be overwritten immediately quite a bit, but this may because of latency timing between EP being refreshed and my wrath/starfire hitting the bosses.

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Old 01/13/09, 3:50 PM   #309
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Cube View Post
Depending on the DK rotation and encounter, Ebon Plague may not have 100% uptime. From my own experience, it is very close to 100%, but it's definitely noticeable when it's not up.

I should stress that this is extremely minor-the longest I have seen E&M stay up before it's been overwritten by our DK is around 4 seconds every minute or so. E&M seems to go up and be overwritten immediately quite a bit, but this may because of latency timing between EP being refreshed and my wrath/starfire hitting the bosses.
Right--if there's an unholy DK on your target, E&M doesn't add anything of worth. Fortunately, you don't have to worry about it, as it's a worthwhile personal DPS talent anyway. And there are some situations (such as Sarth10+3) where an unholy DK might be in the raid, but not applying EP to your DPS target.


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Old 01/13/09, 4:00 PM   #310
Woodlum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by alpiino
I disagree. At Loatheb my average wrath crit was 7561 and its 1s cast with natures grace. My average starfire crit at Loatheb was 11191 and its aprox 2s cast with natures grace.

Heres the Loatheb wws: Wow Web Stats

Its not hard to count from there that wrath eclipses are superior at Loatheb. I even dare to say that wrath eclipse is better at lower crit levels as well. The question is at which level wrath eclipse becomes better?

Lets do a bit of math.
1. A druid has 60% crit and his average wrath hits for 2400
2. A druid has 60% crit and his average SF hits for 4426
3. Lets assume that with natures grace SF cast is 2.13s and W cast is 1s.
I got the average damages by shooting 100 noncrit spells of wrath and SF to heroic training dummy without using proc trinkets or idol.

We are spamming 100 spells of each
100 spells of eclipsed wrath: 100*1.6*(2400*1.2)/(40*1.31s+60*1s) = 460800dmg/112.4s = 4099,6dps
100 spells of eclipsed SF dmg: 100*1.9*4426/(90*2.13s+10*2.63) = 840940dmg/218s = 3857,5dps


So with 60% crit and the above damage and haste values wrath eclipse wins by aprox 250dps!
60% crit is quite reasonable raid buffed with best gear currently available
Average damage values for SF and W would be a lot higher in raid environment.
Haste values are somewhat accurate and reflects raid values.

Things to test:
1. I havent tested how different Idols effect the outcome
2. I dont know how spellpower scales with wrath and sf so I used my unbuffed values for determining SF/W average damage instead of reasonable raid values. (I had exactly 2000 spellpower when I spanked the dummy).
3. This is theory. I dont know how lag effects on 1s wrath casts vs 2.13s SF casts.
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
You will never see 1s Wrath casts. You'll see 1+x, where X is your latency, including ping and reaction time. Second, if your NG'd Starfires are 2.13s, your non-NG'd Starfires are going to be less than 2.63s. NG comes before haste, so with any haste, the benefit of NG is lower. It's best to count NG as 20% haste, multiplicative, for SF.

Wrath eclipse is better on Loatheb if you're going to go past 100% crit on SF with Eclipse. Otherwise, SF eclipse should win except at low gear levels.
Digging this up from a page back because it is interesting in two parts:

I've come to think that I really need to reverse my spell rotation for proccing W-Eclipse since the crit for normal SF is a "gimme" due to the buff. I've never been impressed with my performance on this fight compared to other classes using the "normal" spell rotation. I think rule of thumb for my experiment with this unique encounter this week will be:

Spore-buff:
MF-IS-SF when Eclipse is on CD
SF Spam when off ICD
Switch to W when Eclipse procs
SF on Heroism

Will have to gather some data and see if it actually does better like this.
_______

I also found interest in the 2nd portion of this information exchange regarding 1s wratch casts. Has anyone else been able to get a couple Wraths off during Vortex on Malygos? I haven't captured all the specific circumstances of how I was able to get a few off... maybe it was some heroism bleed over or possible that I had some combination of haste from the Hyperspeed Accelerators and a Embrace of the Spider proc. Maybe even an NG was up from an MF or a spell cast before Vortex lifted me off. Does this behavior with W have any relevance to the 1s+x Wrath formula above? I've verifiably (other raid member saw the green orb flying in at him) been able to get 1 or 2 off during vortex on occasion and thought only instant cast stuff was possible.

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Old 01/13/09, 4:20 PM   #311
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Woodlum View Post
I also found interest in the 2nd portion of this information exchange regarding 1s wratch casts. Has anyone else been able to get a couple Wraths off during Vortex on Malygos? I haven't captured all the specific circumstances of how I was able to get a few off... maybe it was some heroism bleed over or possible that I had some combination of haste from the Hyperspeed Accelerators and a Embrace of the Spider proc. Maybe even an NG was up from an MF or a spell cast before Vortex lifted me off. Does this behavior with W have any relevance to the 1s+x Wrath formula above? I've verifiably (other raid member saw the green orb flying in at him) been able to get 1 or 2 off during vortex on occasion and thought only instant cast stuff was possible.
Vortex ticks every second, and interrupts when it ticks. Since your cast time can actually be lower than 1s (yes, this is incongruous with what I said before. This is the difference between actual cast time and effective cast time), it is very possible to get Wrath casts off during Vortex. That said, if your raid is blowing Heroism at any time where you're liable to get hit with Vortex with it still up, you're doing it wrong. Spider procs would possibly be able to get through it, though.

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Old 01/13/09, 4:34 PM   #312
Woodlum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
Don't come in here to post that gale winds is "WORTHLESS" as if it's some sort of definitive statement of truth.

We've had this debate, and gale winds is a raid dps increase and is useful on most of the difficult encounters.
I wanted to elaborate the term USEFUL for some of the players here with regard to Gale Winds as I have whole heartedly bought into it as well, and for a bit more then trash. My example is:

- Sartharion (+drakes). Very tight DPS requirements here with drakes. If you left drakes up, you should be periodically grouping up the flames/whelps on the rear end of a drake and AoEing, especially at the home stretch. We normally do this on 2D when Tenebron is around 20-10% for the finish her finish and that leaves the board clear until Vesper lands. We tend to group everything up on Sarth's hind leg after a lava wave or every other wave so we are not only cleaning up the adds but getting some effective dps on the boss too. AoE is pretty essential here which even goes above and beyond the term useful.

Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Vortex ticks every second, and interrupts when it ticks. Since your cast time can actually be lower than 1s (yes, this is incongruous with what I said before. This is the difference between actual cast time and effective cast time), it is very possible to get Wrath casts off during Vortex. That said, if your raid is blowing Heroism at any time where you're liable to get hit with Vortex with it still up, you're doing it wrong. Spider procs would possibly be able to get through it, though.
You must have missed the term heroism "bleed over". No one is casting heroism so we can sneak damage in on a vortex, very laughable that's even assumed. 2 sparks is the driving factor and if its like 10s until Vortex, we will wait. But if we have a good 30s for burn in two sparks, maybe three, we will just hit it and speed along the phase instead of delaying for opportunities that may never come to fruition. Whether I am doing it wrong with that said isn't very debatable. Having done the fight several times and having killed the boss, I'm sure you can agree that a full heroism with 1 spark is not as affective as 30 seconds of heroism with 2 or 3 sparks without having to put the numbers together, meaning there is always going to be some remanent of heroism persisting if you are saving it for ideal spark conditions. Cheers.

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Old 01/13/09, 5:03 PM   #313
ATheGreat
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Skullcrusher
Originally Posted by Woodlum View Post
You must have missed the term heroism "bleed over". No one is casting heroism so we can sneak damage in on a vortex, very laughable that's even assumed. 2 sparks is the driving factor and if its like 10s until Vortex, we will wait. But if we have a good 30s for burn in two sparks, maybe three, we will just hit it and speed along the phase instead of delaying for opportunities that may never come to fruition. Whether I am doing it wrong with that said isn't very debatable. Having done the fight several times and having killed the boss, I'm sure you can agree that a full heroism with 1 spark is not as affective as 30 seconds of heroism with 2 or 3 sparks without having to put the numbers together, meaning there is always going to be some remanent of heroism persisting if you are saving it for ideal spark conditions. Cheers.
well if you want to get down to it, he won't be vortexing anymore if you use it under truly ideal spark conditions, because that would mean you have 4 to 5 sparks that you pop all on top of each other right after a vortex and bloodlust then (and attempt to snag an achievement in the process!! :P).

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Old 01/13/09, 5:12 PM   #314
 Adoriele
Happy October 19th!
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by ATheGreat View Post
well if you want to get down to it, he won't be vortexing anymore if you use it under truly ideal spark conditions, because that would mean you have 4 to 5 sparks that you pop all on top of each other right after a vortex and bloodlust then (and attempt to snag an achievement in the process!! :P).
This, plus the best time to Lust is right after the last vortex before Phase 2. There's no sense in not saving it for the one time in the fight where all you have to do is stand there and DPS your brains out. Yes, when choosing between 45s of one spark and 30s of 2 sparks, 30s wins. But you should never have to make that decision.

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Old 01/15/09, 2:12 AM   #315
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Got a decent parse today. A bit laggy, and a bit weird since we MD'd Patchwerk from behind the slimes, but should be informative:
Wow Web Stats

I haven't been able to figure out yet if there are subtle differences in rotation (such as when to refresh DoT's, etc.), that are causing DPS differences among people in the 5k range. More parses are always nice.


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