I was just thinking about the upcoming dual-spec abilities. IMHO, we're goint to be told "2nd skill tree --> resto".
I just thought about becoming a feral-DD (farming, PVP, some bosses still to come).
OK, I will need to collect 2 complete gears, but why not?
Or maybe it will be more helpful to have some kind of "max-DPS" setup, and a less mana-intense setup; both moonkin?
What are your ideas about dual-speccing?
What does this have to do with this thread? Dual speccing might save me some gold, but who cares, gold is ridiculously easy to get.
The Dying curse is a REALLY strong trinket, especially if you need the hit, so using it to reach the hit cap is not really hurting you. (Considering weights where spellpower is the highest value, this trinket offers a ton of it in procs.)
All of your gear seems almost completely optimal (exception of wraith strike as you pointed out). However I have question of itemization, since haste isn't necessarily optimal for us boomies until we hit a certain amount of crit. Would you consider using [Accursed Spine] instead of the Matriarch's spawn? Or is the amount of crit on the spine really superfluous for your current gear mark?
since haste isn't necessarily optimal for us boomies until we hit a certain amount of crit
If you read some of the rest of the Moonkin threads you'll see this has been covered - basically because of the conversion rate being better for haste, and the large amount of crit gained through raid buffs, haste will always be better than crit for all current intents and purposes in a raiding situation.
If you read some of the rest of the Moonkin threads you'll see this has been covered - basically because of the conversion rate being better for haste, and the large amount of crit gained through raid buffs, haste will always be better than crit for all current intents and purposes in a raiding situation.
This. And on top of this, the Spawn offers more base spellpower (yes, it is only 1 extra, but it is more) on top of a considerable more amount of spirit which will also be converted to spellpower. Rounding for implicity:
So you trade 1% crit for 1% haste and some added spellpower which throws the battle even more towards Matriarch. So if I got to choose I would always pick Matriarch, but if the spine dropped and I needed an OH I would still take it. The two are very close.
I am sure that if I read every single thread on this forum I may come across someone with the same problem as me but I tend to go blind after awhile and miss things from reading 20+ pages of responses on information that I have no idea about.
So Patchwork from what I am seeing is the one of the few raid bosses you can do to truely judge how well your dps is. I know that on 10 man I can only dish out about 3k where in 25 man I am only doing a few hundred more, somewhere around 3.5 - 3.8. Seldomly do I ever hit 4k or above. Heck I can barely reach 4k on Thaddius or Loethab.
My current rotation after reading many many threads is: IFF, IS, MF, Wrath Spam until Eclipse Proc, then MF,SF, then spam SF refreshing MF as needed until my Addon says that my Hidden Eclipes timer has almost expired and I repeat the process over again.
Maybe my gear is not up to par as the people doing 4k+ DPS but I am all level 80 Epics. I was told that HR>Haste>SP>Crit so I have gemmed and enchanted accordingly. I am with talents and IFF hit capped, I think I have like 10.20% Hit + 3% IFF + 4% Talent. Haste I believe is around 400 or something and crit is like 28%.
I do get spammed alot with whispers about how I am failing at a Moonkin by other classes because my talent tree is so messed up apparently so I respec all the time to find the best way to improve my DPS.
Reading these forums have improved my abilities alot already being that I played Feral for since the beggining of BC. I only post in hopes that I can get some type of feedback on what I am doing wrong or how to improve my DPS to be more of a benefactor to our Guilds Raids. If I receive nothing but more bashings on how I ruining the Moonkin Spec then so be it, not like I have not heard it all before.
My current rotation after reading many many threads is: IFF, IS, MF, Wrath Spam until Eclipse Proc, then MF,SF, then spam SF refreshing MF as needed until my Addon says that my Hidden Eclipes timer has almost expired and I repeat the process over again.
The first rule of Moonkin DPS: Thou shalt hold thine Eclipse procs inviolate. Seriously. If you CAN cast a Starfire, and Eclipse is up, there is no earthly reason to be doing anything else. Do not refresh your DoTs. Do not cast Typhoon. Do not cast FoN. I'd say do not cast Rebirth, but there are raid leaders out there who would eat me alive for this. As Hamlet has mentioned, the best time to refresh your DoTs is just before Eclipse goes down, when it's impossible to fit another one in. Refresh both. If you're not comfortable with low DoT uptime (and I haven't quite mathed out which case is better), refresh both again just before Eclipse ICD finishes. Yes, this means refreshing Moonfire before it runs its course.
The second rule of Moonkin DPS: Take as little time to proc Eclipse as possible. Note that this does not mean "Oh, Wrath has failed to proc Eclipse for the last 10 seconds, I should switch to Starfire and force a Wrath proc, it's alright". Wrath and Starfire have almost identical expected time to proc. This means that, no matter what time it is, or how long you've been casting wrath without a proc, both spells will, on average, take exactly as much more time. It seems like less time because you're casting fewer spells, but trust me, it's not. This rule also covers refreshing DoTs when the ICD is up; namely, don't. Refresh them just before the ICD finishes instead, because that's free time that doesn't affect your Eclipse uptime.
The second rule of Moonkin DPS: Take as little time to proc Eclipse as possible. Note that this does not mean "Oh, Wrath has failed to proc Eclipse for the last 10 seconds, I should switch to Starfire and force a Wrath proc, it's alright". Wrath and Starfire have almost identical expected time to proc. This means that, no matter what time it is, or how long you've been casting wrath without a proc, both spells will, on average, take exactly as much more time. It seems like less time because you're casting fewer spells, but trust me, it's not. This rule also covers refreshing DoTs when the ICD is up; namely, don't. Refresh them just before the ICD finishes instead, because that's free time that doesn't affect your Eclipse uptime.
I refresh DoT's when the ICD is up if for some reason they're down. Which should be rare, since IS should be coming down ~14s after the Eclipse ICD ends, and MF will last ~9s even if you only cast it once as Eclipse ends. The expectation time to proc Eclipse is ~4s. But I still have slightly ad hoc Moonfire usage, as I've mentioned before, and I think it's an open question exactly what's optimal.
Your point is right and has to be generally emphasized to people, to at least try to stem the tide of "I cast W until Eclipse and then SF why do I only do 3k DPS" posts. The goal of the cycle is to cast as many Eclipsed Starfires per unit time as you can, so avoid wasting Eclipse time and avoid unnecessarily extending the time-to-proc (e.g. the denominator in your Eclipse uptime).
Query: If the right solution is to cast only one Moonfire per cycle (for 24/(30+x) uptime), is it best to cast that Moonfire near the end of the Eclipse cooldown rather than at the beginning, so it's up during Eclipse?
Query: If the right solution is to cast only one Moonfire per cycle (for 24/(30+x) uptime), is it best to cast that Moonfire near the end of the Eclipse cooldown rather than at the beginning, so it's up during Eclipse?
I'd imagine right before the end of the CD rather than at the beginning, for two reasons.
1. You're not losing any more time proccing eclipse
2. For people with higher latency, it gives a "barrier" between getting off that last SF and the cooldown ending, making misfires less likely.
I'd imagine right before the end of the CD rather than at the beginning, for two reasons.
1. You're not losing any more time proccing eclipse
2. For people with higher latency, it gives a "barrier" between getting off that last SF and the cooldown ending, making misfires less likely.
1. To be clear, I'm comparing casting it right as Eclipse ends (specially, immediately following the IS that I keep telling people they should be casting right as soon as you can no longer fit in one more Eclipsed Starfire) to casting it immediately before the second IS just before the Eclipse CD ends. In neither case are you taking time to refresh it when you could be trying to proc Eclipse.
2. This is helpful. I really like being able to finish a Starfire <3s before the CD ends, use an instant (IS), and throw a Wrath that's going to travel and hit the boss just as the CD ends. No risk of error.
The risk with casting MF right then is that if you take too long to proc the Eclipse, you miss the MF extension window. As noted above however, the odds of going 10+ seconds with no Eclipse proc are very small.
I'm not certain, but i think i remember reading here of a most likely gear mess-up in rawr that evaluates crit rather high.
I'm at a point where i've quite a wide selection of rings (except Manifested pain 25KT) and i've been playing around with rawr trying to determine which is best. Results are a bit suspicious to me.
As you can see, i'm low on SP, relatively high on haste and crit. The two rings i'm wearing atm are the two rawr is saying are best for me.
I'm mainly deciding between Titanium Spellshock ring, Lost Jewel, Signet of Kirin Tor, Band of channeled magic and Ring of the Fated.
Now, rawr places them in that exact order. One reason is obvious and logical = higher spellpower. But not that both spellshock and lost jewel are high on crit (and pretty much equal to rawr) while others lag behind.
With my higher level of haste and low sp i'd expect the first, but i've also fairly decent crit, yet it seems to value it high still.
I can't find anything in the changelog of 2.1.7 or 2.1.8 to explain why crit would seem to become more valuable.
The optimizer might've changed, but in any event, I would wait for 2.2 or whatever the next release is and then try it. So far, I'm showing the Signet and the Band as the two best-in-slot.
I haven't looked at Rawr in a bit, but for WLK it's always valued crit suspiciously high. A good rule of thumb is to estimate that haste rating will generally be about 1.4 times stronger than crit rating. I doubt Lost Jewel would ever be better.
I've been raiding a bit with the glyphed typhoon and I've gotta say I like it quite a bit. It's only worth 1-6% of my dps during a boss fight but I think it's worthwhile.
Generally I use it when there are two or more targets to hit, but we still need strong single target damage, or while moving. So it's useful on Noth, Anub, Grobbulus to name a few. I'll probably stick with it.
One thing I dont understand is if my Earth & Moon over rides a Warlock's Curse of the Elements. I wouldn't think the SP would stack but what about the Resistances can that still play a roll? How does this work?
One thing I dont understand is if my Earth & Moon over rides a Warlock's Curse of the Elements. I wouldn't think the SP would stack but what about the Resistances can that still play a roll? How does this work?
Your warlock is a moron if he's applying CoE with a moonkin in the raid. They don't stack.
One thing I dont understand is if my Earth & Moon over rides a Warlock's Curse of the Elements. I wouldn't think the SP would stack but what about the Resistances can that still play a roll? How does this work?
One thing I dont understand is if my Earth & Moon over rides a Warlock's Curse of the Elements. I wouldn't think the SP would stack but what about the Resistances can that still play a roll? How does this work?
-Resistance would still affect the target. This doesn't stop your warlocks from being morons, as -resistance pretty much doesn't have a purpose in the raiding game.
The optimizer might've changed, but in any event, I would wait for 2.2 or whatever the next release is and then try it. So far, I'm showing the Signet and the Band as the two best-in-slot.
There is a significant difference in the modeling between Rawr v2.1.9 and Wrathcalcsv1.1.3.
My current relative stat values in both look like this:
Wrathcalcs/Rawr (raw damage or damage, not total)
Spellpower: 1.16 1.05
Spell Crit: 0.68 0.71
Spell Hit: - -
Spell Haste: 1.04 0.77
Spirit: 0.19 0.17
Int: 0.40 0.24
Spellpower, Crit, and Spirit are very close, but Rawr has Haste and Int lower than Wrathcalcs does. This is using identical full raid buff assumptions. For reference, the stats I'm using in Wrathcalcs:
Edit: I just realized that the numbers here are with the "Smart Switching" option in Rawr turned off. If I turn it on, it actually puts Crit as more valuable than Haste (.77 for Crit, .68 for Haste).
There is a significant difference in the modeling between Rawr v2.1.9 and Wrathcalcsv1.1.3.
Considering that Rawr.Moonkin 2.1.9 still uses the original calculation system from way back in the beta 14 days, that makes some sense. The updated version that makes use of WrathCalcs has not been built into a release version yet, as it's only just been written and is still undergoing code reviews and use testing by experts.
We went through 25naxx tonight again, me wearing crit&sp rings (spellshock and lost jewel) and it seemed to work out a bit better, though it might have something to do with following the no-dots-while-eclipsed rule more closely. Also, one run isnt enough to base on.
5550 dps on patchwerk with me applying imp. ff because of a lack of spriest. No wws log tho, forgot to record.
On another note, i dont know if it was incredible rng or has OOC proc really been changed on the positive side. At least on 50% of hurricanes it procced, much more than usualy anyway. Anyone else noticed similar?
The first rule of Moonkin DPS: Thou shalt hold thine Eclipse procs inviolate. Seriously. If you CAN cast a Starfire, and Eclipse is up, there is no earthly reason to be doing anything else. [...]
The second rule of Moonkin DPS: Take as little time to proc Eclipse as possible. [...]
To substantiate these rules I made a spreadsheet comparing the values of our spells during the various stages of Eclipse. Basically, if the damage per cast time of a dot is high enough, it may be worth casting. Improved Insect Swarm greatly changes the value of dots in this regard.
Our basic cycle is to cast Wrath until Eclipse, then Starfire during Eclipse and afterward during the cooldown. My spreadsheet informs me that my average dps (not counting Earth and Moon since it affects all spells equally) is 4229 when taking an entire cycle. When trying to proc Eclipse, casting a dot postpones this entire cycle. It stands to reason that the damage per cast time of such a dot would have to be greater than this 4229 dps. Without Improved Insect Swarm, this is never true. With it, Wrath boosts Insect Swarm enough to be worth it, and with an average time of 5+ seconds to proc Eclipse, eclipsed Starfire makes Moonfire worth it as well.
During Eclipse, only Moonfire might be good enough because it adds roughly 3% to your remaining eclipsed Starfires. I came up with at least 9 seconds of Eclipse left, assuming you would otherwise have casted Moonfire directly after Eclipse.
After Eclipse ends, dots only have to be stronger than Starfire rather than the base cycle's average dps. Glyphed Insect Swarm is that strong even without boosting Wrath. Moonfire will only be worth it if you can cast three Starfires to extend it. These may be either during the cooldown or during the next Eclipse if you can fit that in. It is still an interesting question whether you should refresh your dots just before the cooldown ends, possibly even overwriting existing dots.
Moonfire will only be worth it if you can cast three Starfires to extend it.
Nesh, on Sheet2 you have MF coefficients of 52% (direct damage) and 3.8% (each MF tick). Those numbers should be 15% and 13%, respectively. For a 4-tick moonfire the numbers are 15% and 52%. It looks like you swapped those, and then took 15/4 to get 3.8%.
Also the MF glyph is additive with Moonfury and IMF. You have the right multiplier (1+.1+.1+.75 = 1.95) for the dot, but you should use (1+.1+.1-.9 = .3) for the direct damage.
Even a five-tick Moonfire will will almost always be higher DPCT than non-eclipse Starfire. In fact, with these corrections, and your spreadsheet, even a four-tick MF beats SF.
Edit:
You are showing a coef of .76 for IS and a Multiplier of 1.4.
.76 is correct for 6-tick IS. If you use that you should use a multiplier of 7/6 (splendor) * 1.3 (glyph) = 1.52.
In sheet2 cell c21, I think you are trying to compute
IS DPS benefit = (Extra Wrath Damage + IS Damage) / (IS cast time + latency)
= (3% * Wrath DPS * Wrath time + IS Damage) / (1.5/(1+haste%) + latency)
but instead of ".../(1.5/(1+haste%)+latency)"
you instead have ".../(1+haste%)+latency"
Thanks for the review, Erdluf. I had indeed swapped the Moonfire coefficients, and used 6-tick Insect Swarm rather than 7. I have updated the spreadsheet. Insect Swarm Multiplier is 1.4 for the glyph (30%) plus 2T7 (10%). I assumed they stack additively.
The IS benefit calculation seems to be wrong indeed, but dividing by 1.5 will not fix it either. The cast time of Wrath (and Starfire) is a bit more complex because of the interaction with Nature's Grace. I should have made separate cells to calculate their cast time. Not going to bother now, though, because with your corrected Insect Swarm coefficient it is stronger even without boosting Wrath.
02/09/09, 11:19 AM
Similar Threads
