On our longest and best attempt yesterday on 25man (15% wipe, 12:25 min combat) it procced 19 times, giving a 16,9% uptime. Overall on all tries it averaged at ~12% uptime.

Nothing like Blood Queen obviously, but still worth having for the fight imo.

On the topic of removing IS from spec/rotation, I'd like some more opinions on rotation for those who have 4t10.

Mostly in regards to when are you refreshing MF (or IS), what glyphs are you using, etc.

I am using both MF glyphs and Glyph of Starfall. I specced out of IIS as I am less than a percent away from soft crit cap and from the tests I've run, IS doesn't pull it's weight even to keep up during S Eclipse.

Currently, I am using IS and MF to start a fight (to get the idol rolling). I then do Wr > L. Eclipse and let MF expire (which normally occurs around the same time L. Eclipse ends). I then Starfire > S. Eclipse and watch to see when the idol is 4 seconds from dropping(1 second built in cushion), at which point I cast MF(even if it's during a Solar Eclipse). I then rinse and repeat keeping only MF up. The only time I cast IS is during movement on a boss, if both starfall and moonfire are up/on CD. The general idea behind this rotation is to maximize Wr and SF casts to better utilize the 4t10 bonus.

In theory (someone correct me if I'm wrong), I should only have to cast 1 MF per 35 seconds to keep the idol up assuming full extension due to Starfires (which theoretically, will occur for every MF).

I made a spreadsheet using raid numbers (from my guild's WoL parses) to calculate my own personal DPCT and DPS from MF, SF, IS, and Wr, and strictly from those numbers, I came up with the rotation stated above. I found that including the damage addition (from IS and the extra wrath damage) were I to have IS glyph and IIS fully specced, fully extended MF beats IS in damage per cast. I tested my rotation on the training dummy (along with a variety of rotation/glyph combinations), and it seems like it does the highest dps of any of the rotations I have tried.

Of course training dummies do not account for changing situations during a raid encounter, but I haven't had my 4 piece long enough to test on bosses and I'd like to hear more opinions about what rotations people are using.

You cannot really judge it based on how much damage the spell alone did. How many GCDs did you use IS on? How many more times did he use Starfall than you did? Now take that number and see what opportunity cost on wraths or starfires that could have been cast instead.

This is like the argument of IS and MF...moonfire does tend to do less damage, even extended, but IS has to be cast more often to do the damage it does.

This.

And this.


I tried to explain this in a earlier post (about a month ago) but didn't got any response to it really. The math wasn't really correct at that time.

As Pokerkin says, he doesn't use IS either, only when he is forced to run (here I use MF, StFa, FoN or Typhoon (and IS would have been better than typhoon)). Here I do agree that the point in IS should be great to have, for the movement when I don't benefit from any other spell, but I can't agree that I want to spend a total of 4 talent points and a glyph for a spell that's kinda mediocre.

I still use 2 T9 (basicly cause I'm about to switch from balance PvE to resto PvP and saving marks for the gear) so for now my MF still is kinda decent. The question is if it still will be after I get that forth piece of T10. And it seems that we will get alot of crit from the gear in ICC, so the idol maybe even put us over soft crit cap - does this mean that we are going back for the ilvl 213 idol? Hopefully not.

I posted the comments on Snoodys post and only looked at the "proof" that IS was not worth having.

There have been some comments on this forum stating that we should drop MF or IS from our rotation. People have claimed that its better with OF or something else.

But there have not been any hard fact backing this up.

WrathCalc, SimCraft, logs of top Moonkins clearly points out that IS/MF is still very much part of our spells to use.

Starfall, Typhoon and OF is kind of mediocre spells to use.

Starfall as i tried to point out in my comment is not worth to glyph for in normal circumstances, Snoodys damage from glyphed Starfall was not much more then i had without it glyphed. It was under 60K more damage done. However as Zoomkins point out that there are fights where we want to glyph it but not from a general point.

OF is not proccing enough that is worth loosing other dps talents points for. Except Blood Queen where it truly shines.
Typhoon is pretty much worthless since you need 4 targets to hit before its even comparable with Starfire.

Base your comments on hard facts instead of "i notice a dps increase when i do X".

IS as far as i am concerned is still worth casting and having glyphed(unless you are required to debuff the target)
The question for us is not dropping MF/IS but rather when should we cast it. At what point is it worth to refresh.

Based on a recent ICC10, running 3/3 OF and 2/3 iIS. Across all kills (Marrow -> Sindragosa):
Average OF uptime: 10.2%
Average DPS(e): 6929.8

Quick "napkin" math would suggest OF accounted for ~70DPS. Losing a point in iIS cost me ~40 DPS based on Rawr.

Logs some what skewed because I was healing on Dreamwalker, and I went unbitten on BQL to get the achievement.

I don't want to pass any judgement on whether I think OF is worth taking, just wanted to share some data I had. The log is here if anyone wants to take a look. Log

Also just on another note, was running with Nibelung the whole night, averaged out to ~260 DPS on boss kills.

This is my first post and reading the entire thread I have some questions.

1. Is Niebrug our BIS weapon if crit and haste soft capped. I know there has been lot of guessing but boy a clear answer would be great. It seems that frozen bone spike and a good offhand would make up the 260 dps or so that Nieb is dealing.

2. Is too much haste a bad thing? Will being over haste cap effect me negitively, or does it just not give the benefit that other classes get from it.

3. Do you find combat logs are effected by the haste soft cap. For example if my wrath is below GCD by say .10 second, and I cast 100 wraths in this state, will logs show me not on target for 10 seconds?

Thanks

And losing one point in OF costs you what for the gain of ~40 DPS by iIS?

Was a bit bored today so I went to test it on a dummy and yes, it does proc of Languish. In fact, during normal rotation it procces almost instantly it's off ICD ... at least it feels so, since I had no way to track it on any timer.

On a side note: anyone knows any addon that tracks this trinket's ICD? I've checked several so far and it seems none of them had it implemented so far.

Thanks for testing that I know it doesn't really affect much since it is pretty much instantly proccing during normal rotation, but it is nice to know.

I don't know of any addons that track it, but you could configure power auras to start a count down/up timer when the proc is not up.

That's plausible, I think. I did make a change a few weeks ago that made IS weaker (regarding the estimate of how IS interacts with NG), it's a bit on the conservative side now. I wouldn't be surprised if it no longer adds any DPS in our stationary rotation.

One subtlety this doesn't take into account is casting it right after a Pre-Solar SF or a Pre-Lunar Wrath while you use the GCD to see whether Eclipse/NG procced. The model doesn't account for that, but it is a time when you can cast an instant at a lower opportunity cost than normal. And then of course, there's movement, which in practice results in a lot of DoT casting anyway.