Moonkin Raiding - Page 215

• Hamlet · 02/17/10, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

I've heard from folks in my guild that they are disallowing equipping normal+heroic versions of the same trinket, e.g. the ever-popular dual Reign, for ICC trinkets like the coveted DFO. I haven't seen any Blue posts mentioning such a thing though - has anyone else heard something like this?

This has always been the case for ICC trinkets. In fact, they're Unique, not even Unique-Equipped, so when I got a Heroic Abacus today I had to trash my normal one before I could loot it.

I haven't heard of any change to ToC trinkets.

Zifrelm · 02/17/10, 12:26 PM

Sorry if my wording was a little funny; didn't mean to imply that there'd be any change to ToC trinkets. I hadn't realized the ICC ones were all Unique and that heroic/normal items counted as the same thing for that purpose. Thanks.

Valardruid · 02/17/10, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bornakk

The Phylactery of the Nameless Lich's proc is a little underbudget and we plan to correct that in an upcoming patch.

If the value of [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich]'s spellpower proc is brought up to par with [Dislodged Foreign Object]'s proc, these trinkets could end up very close in value, with phylactery possibly coming out ahead, depending on how much the proc is buffed.

Source

• Hamlet · 02/17/10, 11:56 PM

Yeah, any buff which makes the proc equal in strength to DFO will make Phylactery better pre-cap (and roughly equivalent post-cap).

• Hamlet · 02/18/10, 12:39 AM

GC posted this about the Wrath Glyph idea (longer cast time, more damage) that people have been throwing around for a while to fix haste cap issues:

I understand the intent and it's clever in a way, but we would be hesitant to introduce a glyph that would actually be a bad glyph for players who weren't capable of benefiting from a bunch of haste. There are some glyphs with a kiss / curse vibe, but usually not this severe, and with a curse that really isn't a curse when you consider that it lets you benefit more from haste in the long run.

It might make more sense if you tucked it away where only endgame focused players could reach it (like an idol that dropped off an ICC boss), but even then it would almost need a warning label explaining what it was trying to do.

For whatever it's worth, I replied:

I find that concern a bit overblown in this case. The Glyph would likely have a very nearly neutral effect for players at low levels of haste (assuming the intention here is to leave the overall power level of Wrath intact). Many Glyphs are similarly weak when not used in the correct situation. The analogy above to Glyph of Healing Touch is apt, and Glyph of Moonfire is another example. An uninformed player who uses this proposed Glyph will not be severely affected in anyway; he will simply be using a suboptimal Glyph that does not provide him a strong DPS increase (as the haste and damage effects will cancel each other out). Merely using a suboptimal Glyph is not a harsh or unusual fate for an uninformed player, in fact it's rather the norm for them.

All this said, I can think of reasons why you wouldn't go with this solution. It would necessitate some heavy rebalancing and we're nearly done with the expansion. And in the long run, reexamining the design of Nature's Grace itself is probably a better than introducing a temporary fix. Still, adding a new Glyph as an option for players does not heavily restrict your design space in the future. At worst, it winds up weak or very niche-use, which is frequent for Glyphs--they exist to provide options.

I'm sure you're aware of the undesirability of having commonly used spells crash heavily into the 1s GCD limit, and that this will be something to avoid when you have a chance for a more major redesign in Cataclysm. For now, the main goal that is that Balance should scale correctly for the rest of this expansion. If you do in fact release more content beyond Icecrown, you will likely need to implement at least some sort of scaling fix, or else simply continue the sequence of periodic talant buffs (Eclipse in 3.1, Eclipse in 3.2, Eclipse in 3.3, E&M in 3.3.2) that have been keeping Moonkin afloat throughout WLK despite having very poor scaling factors with stats. Either solution is ultimately fine, but this Glyph idea (which has been circulating in the community for many months) strikes me as one very reasonable option. It will necessitate balance work for the development team to tune to the right level of overall DPS, but so will any fix. And just as before, some change will inevitably be necessary when we ascend another tier of gear with our weak inherent scaling.

EDIT: Perhaps an even better example of a "trap" for less experienced players is Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation, which you went live with rather recently. The inherent tradeoff (you are able to maintain Rejuvenation on fewer targets at once) is subtle and likely to be entirely missed by weaker players, even though many experienced players find that it outweighs the benefits of the Glyph in the majority of typical situations.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Glyph Of Wrath Suggestion

gannonjf · 02/18/10, 3:09 AM

I am quite curious to see what they are going to do with us. Obviously the small buff to E and M isn't going to last us even thru Heroic modes as we start gearing out of there. Being already crit and haste soft cappped it's depressing picking up new gear and seeing so little return from it. Obviously again, this problem is only going to be ever more apparent for myself as we start 25man Heroic modes next week. Ready set stack spell power?

On a side note. Being soft haste and crit capped, would it make sense to stop gemming for socket bonuses and going for straight spell power instead now or? I haven't seen much discussion on this in particular anywhere and would love some answers from the much more math inclined people that reside here. Thanks in advance!

vern · 02/18/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

It will necessitate balance work for the development team to tune to the right level of overall DPS, but so will any fix

Look at the last changes they did to our talent trees:
-Buffing Eclipse and degrading t8 bonus: no thought needed in that, after months of "testing" with tier 8 active they just moved the buff to the talents.
-E&M buff: simple % increase of DPS, no chance of complication.

What I pointed out means that their design team are working 95% of the time on cataclysm, and the people that are left to extinguish all the little fires in the community do it by the most simplest means that don't require any testing and they're doing it in the talents which will be redone for the next expansion. Glyph change at this point is wild dream IMO.

• Hamlet · 02/18/10, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by vern

What I pointed out means that their design team are working 95% of the time on cataclysm, and the people that are left to extinguish all the little fires in the community do it by the most simplest means that don't require any testing and they're doing it in the talents which will be redone for the next expansion. Glyph change at this point is wild dream IMO.

I think this is probably right; I mostly posted because I thought his given reason was fatuous. My guess is that if more content comes out, they'll do nothing until they can empirically see our DPS tailing off once again, and then once again give a small DPS buff to some talent.

Vanguardor · 02/18/10, 1:05 PM

I was wondering if someone could explain what they do for the Festergut Encounter. Every time I have attempted/killed this boss my dps has been abysmal and frankly I know that I can do better. I have always been on the outside with the rest of the ranged dps because I am able to do the "dance". I do plan to ask to be on the inside next week to compare, but was hoping that there might be something else that I could do that might help me increase my dps. Any help would be great.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Zifrelm · 02/18/10, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Vanguardor

I was wondering if someone could explain what they do for the Festergut Encounter.

If you have to move for spores and are randomly made to puke, your DPS will suck. This is true for ALL ranged DPS on that fight. Unless your DPS sucks even compared to theirs, you're not doing anything wrong. You can't just put all your ranged on top of the tank though, because if a minimum number (8?) of ranged/healers are not outside, he'll start making people inside puke, which would make the whole raid puke (and wipe).

slanderousne · 02/18/10, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vanguardor

I was wondering if someone could explain what they do for the Festergut Encounter. Every time I have attempted/killed this boss my dps has been abysmal and frankly I know that I can do better. I have always been on the outside with the rest of the ranged dps because I am able to do the "dance". I do plan to ask to be on the inside next week to compare, but was hoping that there might be something else that I could do that might help me increase my dps. Any help would be great.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

To be quite honest your DPS doesn't appear to fail. Festergut can be frustrating from a caster perspective, especially if you are so unfortunate to be on the outside. The ranged who stay in aren't getting hit with vile gas and they also(for the most part) won't have to move when gas spores come out. One thing you can time however, that I found to work is: dont waste an eclipse if you dont have to. Wait for vile gas to come out, once it hits(someone else) start going for the eclipse proc. The 2 piece t9 set bonus helps here as well since there is often a fair amount of movement going on.

Vanguardor · 02/18/10, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

If you have to move for spores and are randomly made to puke, your DPS will suck. This is true for ALL ranged DPS on that fight. Unless your DPS sucks even compared to theirs, you're not doing anything wrong. You can't just put all your ranged on top of the tank though, because if a minimum number (8?) of ranged/healers are not outside, he'll start making people inside puke, which would make the whole raid puke (and wipe).

Sorry I should have explained how we did the fight. We had only 8 DPS on the outside, all our healers were on the inside. The Mage in the group was on the inside for that fight. Me compared to the other ranged DPS, I was very low (barely above the feral tank). I just wasn't sure if there was something like an adjustment to priority of spells or something of that nature.

Originally Posted by slanderousne

The 2 piece t9 set bonus helps here as well since there is often a fair amount of movement going on.

I have been holding on to some badges hoping to either get a Mark from Saurfang or the gloves from VoA. I think tonight though I will probably get a 2 pieces.

Thank you for the replies.

slanderousne · 02/18/10, 2:48 PM

Gastric bloat stacks on the tanks increasing their damage by 10% per stack(my guilds tanks take it to 9/10 before switching). This is one of those fights that you shouldn't compare your damage to the tanks damage(especially on a bad night). As with our class this fight has a fairly sizable RnG for outside casters.

Lilija · 02/18/10, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

If you have to move for spores and are randomly made to puke, your DPS will suck. This is true for ALL ranged DPS on that fight. Unless your DPS sucks even compared to theirs, you're not doing anything wrong. You can't just put all your ranged on top of the tank though, because if a minimum number (8?) of ranged/healers are not outside, he'll start making people inside puke, which would make the whole raid puke (and wipe).

However, I think moonkins lose the most from all the casters there and it isn't much harm to put 1 owl in melee range

boomtilimoom · 02/18/10, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Vanguardor

I was wondering if someone could explain what they do for the Festergut Encounter. Every time I have attempted/killed this boss my dps has been abysmal and frankly I know that I can do better. I have always been on the outside with the rest of the ranged dps because I am able to do the "dance". I do plan to ask to be on the inside next week to compare, but was hoping that there might be something else that I could do that might help me increase my dps. Any help would be great.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I noticed from your log that you got Innoculated 6 times. What I tend to do is aim to get 2 stacks and then save Barkskin for the exhale, so I don't have to move to get the third stack. This could be helpful, especially if you get a set of particularly awkward spores.
Also, in more recent kills, after the first exhale I havn't moved to get to any other spores, relying on the fact that we should (hopefully >.>) have enough DPS to get him down before he exhales a 2nd time. I wouldn't recommend this though if you're unsure about wether or not he'll exhale a 2nd time.