Moonkin Raiding - Page 217

• Hamlet · 02/20/10, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Talsh

This is just speculation, but I would imagine Blizzard gave us the languish mechanic instead of the flat "increase SF/wrath crit damage by 7%" because the latter would be boring, and the former seems exciting, even though it's really not.

Pretty much this. Like I said above, Languish is a buff to Starfire and Wrath. It's strongest where Starfire and Wrath do the most damage--the stationary Eclipse rotation. The 2T9 (DoT) and 2T10 (casting GotW) are comparably stronger when you have to move a lot.

Alafeya · 02/20/10, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

GC posted this about the Wrath Glyph idea (longer cast time, more damage) that people have been throwing around for a while to fix haste cap issues:

For whatever it's worth, I replied:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Glyph Of Wrath Suggestion

One simple change Blizzard could make, that could really go a long way in moonkins scaling better, is to change Genesis to provide +5% dmg done on all spells instead of just periodic spells. This would cause us to spend less talent points in places that increase our hit/crit/haste, and we would have higher caps and thus would utilize better gear more effectively without any effect or additional complexity to the loot table, which Bliz has already been saying has grown to be too large.

Jivv · 02/20/10, 11:40 PM

I have read the thread thus far and a lot of talk has been brought up about rotations and such and the "ideal" spec. I'm new to the moonkin class and have specc'd 2/5 Genesis at the moment, however I am going to try OF just to mess around with it. But, now on to my question. My current rotation is as follows:

Put up IS, MF, Wrath until Lunar, Starfire until Solar, refresh dots when they fall.

I will be getting the 4 piece T10 soon and I was wondering if anyone else that had it had a solid rotation. I was thinking of the following rotation:

Put up IS, Wrath until Lunar, put up MF, Starfire until Solar, repeat.

I have seen a lot of discussion about moonkin rotations here and I was wondering what rotations people with 4pc T10 are currently using. Thanks for the input!

Videl · 02/20/10, 11:41 PM

We don't really need a talent we can't spare the points for buffed or changed. Changing genesis in that manner would just make us pull points out of things like IIS and result in tiny dps boosts and wouldn't affect the wrath problem.

People, in general, attribute a lot of extra functionality to damage done over time that isn't really there.

AlecAlo · 02/21/10, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

GC posted this about the Wrath Glyph idea (longer cast time, more damage) that people have been throwing around for a while to fix haste cap issues:

I understand the intent and it's clever in a way, but we would be hesitant to introduce a glyph that would actually be a bad glyph for players who weren't capable of benefiting from a bunch of haste. There are some glyphs with a kiss / curse vibe, but usually not this severe, and with a curse that really isn't a curse when you consider that it lets you benefit more from haste in the long run.

It might make more sense if you tucked it away where only endgame focused players could reach it (like an idol that dropped off an ICC boss), but even then it would almost need a warning label explaining what it was trying to do.

For whatever it's worth, I replied:

I find that concern a bit overblown in this case. The Glyph would likely have a very nearly neutral effect for players at low levels of haste (assuming the intention here is to leave the overall power level of Wrath intact). Many Glyphs are similarly weak when not used in the correct situation. The analogy above to Glyph of Healing Touch is apt, and Glyph of Moonfire is another example. An uninformed player who uses this proposed Glyph will not be severely affected in anyway; he will simply be using a suboptimal Glyph that does not provide him a strong DPS increase (as the haste and damage effects will cancel each other out). Merely using a suboptimal Glyph is not a harsh or unusual fate for an uninformed player, in fact it's rather the norm for them.

All this said, I can think of reasons why you wouldn't go with this solution. It would necessitate some heavy rebalancing and we're nearly done with the expansion. And in the long run, reexamining the design of Nature's Grace itself is probably a better than introducing a temporary fix. Still, adding a new Glyph as an option for players does not heavily restrict your design space in the future. At worst, it winds up weak or very niche-use, which is frequent for Glyphs--they exist to provide options.

I'm sure you're aware of the undesirability of having commonly used spells crash heavily into the 1s GCD limit, and that this will be something to avoid when you have a chance for a more major redesign in Cataclysm. For now, the main goal that is that Balance should scale correctly for the rest of this expansion. If you do in fact release more content beyond Icecrown, you will likely need to implement at least some sort of scaling fix, or else simply continue the sequence of periodic talant buffs (Eclipse in 3.1, Eclipse in 3.2, Eclipse in 3.3, E&M in 3.3.2) that have been keeping Moonkin afloat throughout WLK despite having very poor scaling factors with stats. Either solution is ultimately fine, but this Glyph idea (which has been circulating in the community for many months) strikes me as one very reasonable option. It will necessitate balance work for the development team to tune to the right level of overall DPS, but so will any fix. And just as before, some change will inevitably be necessary when we ascend another tier of gear with our weak inherent scaling.

EDIT: Perhaps an even better example of a "trap" for less experienced players is Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation, which you went live with rather recently. The inherent tradeoff (you are able to maintain Rejuvenation on fewer targets at once) is subtle and likely to be entirely missed by weaker players, even though many experienced players find that it outweighs the benefits of the Glyph in the majority of typical situations.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Glyph Of Wrath Suggestion

While I do like the Glyph of Wrath suggestion, I would be surprised if the route they take for moonkins isn't the same one they've taken with other classes in this last minor patch. Namely allowing a DoT to scale with crit and or haste. While it doesn't alleviate something as annoying as wrath problem, it does solve some of the scaling problems and seems to be more in line with what Blizzard wants to do. I'm actually just a tad surprised it wasn't included in this minor content patch with the other DoT changes.

• Hamlet · 02/21/10, 2:48 AM

Originally Posted by AlecAlo

While I do like the Glyph of Wrath suggestion, I would be surprised if the route they take for moonkins isn't the same one they've taken with other classes in this last minor patch. Namely allowing a DoT to scale with crit and or haste. While it doesn't alleviate something as annoying as wrath problem, it does solve some of the scaling problems and seems to be more in line with what Blizzard wants to do. I'm actually just a tad surprised it wasn't included in this minor content patch with the other DoT changes.

That would be a seemingly workable angle to take also. I didn't meant to start a whole train of speculation or armchair design about how to fix Moonkin. Like I said above, it's hardly worth worrying about given how late we are in the expansion. If there were another tier of content we'd need another talent buff to avoid falling behind due to our terrible scaling, but it doesn't look like there will be anyway.

Snoody · 02/21/10, 5:44 PM

Sindragosa strategy

Talking about the Unchained Magic debuff, and how to maximize damage under the effect of this one.

I usually do like this:

Moonfire (1:st stack), Starfire (2-8 stacks), Barkskin (9:th stack) and finish it off with a Hurricane (10:th stack).

After this I wait for 2-3 seconds for the debuff to go off (about 10k dmg on you with Barkskin up). When it blows you usually have 4-5, maybe 6-7, seconds of the Unchained Magic debuff left, so then you can continue with your normal rotation.

Works great for me, not to much of a dps-loss.

Rannasha · 02/22/10, 9:30 AM

If you use an instant-cast directly after a non-instant, you gain only one stack of Backlash. So it's beneficial to always cast Moonfire and/or Insect Swarm directly after a Starfire or Wrath, assuming the cast-time on that Wrath was not <1 second, this phenomenon might not occur then.

Aarondf2003 · 02/22/10, 11:27 AM

To continue on the Unchained Magic convo... Due to being the only caster dps in our first week's 10man group, I was forced to learn how to deal with it very quickly since it was on me every time and the second was on a healer.

The first debuff of each ground phase isn't applied until after the first Frost Breath. This means you have several seconds of nuke time to set up an eclipse before receiving the debuff. Because of this, I save my Treants and Starfall for Unchained Magic since they are a much higher 'damage per cast time' spell than nukes. As soon as she lands, I am chain casting Wrath to get in as many quick hits as possible that aren't subject to penalty. Obviously you don't get Treant and Starfall cooldowns frequently enough for each debuff but in a 25man setting where you aren't always the target, it's applicable.

Once I see her casting Frost Breath, I'm in preparation for the application of the debuff and ready to go into my UM rotation :
Treants, Starfall, Starfire(MF), Starfire(IS), Starfire x5-6, Barkskin, Hurricane.

The Starfall can be applied instantly after setting down your trees and won't generate a stack, as well as the post-Starfire DoTs and Barkskin after your last Starfire. The hard part is being aware of your hurricane cast time and judging which Starfire to end on so you can time the hurricane to end about the same time as the debuff.

If you get pulled in, it's lost dps time for almost everyone anyway and was unavoidable.

Hyperion · 02/22/10, 1:49 PM

I was popping Starfall at every air phase, to get some multi-target action, but I'm not sure if it was worth waiting to cast, instead of just using it every time the CD was up.

Here's the log from that fight
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

• Hamlet · 02/22/10, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I was popping Starfall at every air phase, to get some multi-target action, but I'm not sure if it was worth waiting to cast, instead of just using it every time the CD was up.

This thought process is a typical example of what happens when you get too comfortable thinking of total DPS as the benchmark of performance. The air phases have fixed length, so DPS during them doesn't end the fight faster. Either your raid needs help getting the blocks down in time, in which case you'd use timers during air phases, or it doesn't, in which case you use them on the boss. In no case is it particularly relevant which use does more total DPS. I'd probably use it on the boss, since the primary challenge on blocks tends to be timing/coordination (not killing them too quickly) rather than actual DPS output, and Starfall doesn't really help there.

But for other situations where this comes up, the answer is that it's always more total damage to wait to cast Starfall if it's possible to get a cast on multiple targets. A cast with multiple targets present does at least twice the damage of a cast on a single target.

Zifrelm · 02/22/10, 4:45 PM

I don't know about you guys, but we generally try to keep all the ice blocks in the Sindragosa air phase ~10 yards apart to prevent, you know, death.

I'm fairly sure SFall's AOE radius is far smaller than that, meaning that you'd still only hit one ice block at once. So SFall is far better off being saved for the boss.

Malpercio · 02/22/10, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

I don't know about you guys, but we generally try to keep all the ice blocks in the Sindragosa air phase ~10 yards apart to prevent, you know, death.

I'm fairly sure SFall's AOE radius is far smaller than that, meaning that you'd still only hit one ice block at once. So SFall is far better off being saved for the boss.

Each individual star will only hit one tomb, but you'll still get 20 stars total, compared to 10 on single target. That said, I agree it's better using on the boss, and best during an instability after a cast-time spell.

Hyperion · 02/22/10, 11:00 PM

This thought process is a typical example of what happens when you get too comfortable thinking of total DPS as the benchmark of performance. The air phases have fixed length, so DPS during them doesn't end the fight faster. Either your raid needs help getting the blocks down in time, in which case you'd use timers during air phases, or it doesn't, in which case you use them on the boss. In no case is it particularly relevant which use does more total DPS. I'd probably use it on the boss, since the primary challenge on blocks tends to be timing/coordination (not killing them too quickly) rather than actual DPS output, and Starfall doesn't really help there.

Good points, I'm a dumbass for not thinking about the fact that air phases are on fixed timers, thank you for bringing me around to that; I did lose track of the true goal of the fight.

Each individual star will only hit one tomb, but you'll still get 20 stars total, compared to 10 on single target. That said, I agree it's better using on the boss, and best during an instability after a cast-time spell.

I can't actually remember if I ended up using it during the air phase for our kill, more often than not I WAS using it during instability. I just like to theory craft and think of different scenarios in a fight, usually I end up staring right past the obvious answer and try to over-complicate things >.<

sapphire1987 · 02/22/10, 11:29 PM

I am very confused at the Glyph now...no doubt, the MF & SF Glyph is the best two. then, igrone the raid benefit.

IS Glyph provide about 7%*30/130=1.6% dps boost in normal for me
i don't know how to do the StarFall Glyph calculation and the comparison with IS Glyph, and i have removed it for a long time.
someone plz give me an advise on it. thx a lot

ps.
1.And i have an idea that if i get the 277Nibelung, maybe SF Glyph will work much better?
2.Is the IS 3%miss-debuff unique and very useful in icc encounters?

sorry for my poor english