Moonkin Raiding - Page 222

Valardruid · 02/26/10, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Valardruid

Dropping the moonfire glyph seems to weaken moonfire to the point that unless it is fully extended, it is a dps loss. Also, glyph of starfire makes a fully extended moonfire worth more than a glyphed insect swarm.

This was come about using a model (wrathcalcs) and is mathematically sound.

• Hamlet · 02/26/10, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pokerkin

I posted this about a page ago, but if you look at the the numbers, Glyph of Starfire and Glyph of Moonfire are dependant on each other (obviously). Eliminating one of the two from your glyph setup, will reduce the value of MF enough that ONE glyphed IS will beat out ONE glyphed MF.

If you ignore the -3% hit debuff, then you can run either Glyph of IS as the third and leave Moonfire out of the rotation, or run Glyph of Starfire as the third and leave IS out of the rotation. The two come up very close in DPS on the spreadsheet; people would probably have to check in individual gear. I'd probably favor Glyph of IS though; the sheet slightly overestimates Glyph of Starfire.

Assuming you want to provide the raid debuff though, which is worthwhile in serious content since the DPS loss is very small, the best third Glyph looks to be Starfire. It's almost twice as good as Moonfire on paper, so even if you don't get the extension every time, it's probably better. This is why I was annoyed at the "Glyph of Starfire is useless without Glyph of Moonfire" posts. It's not, and best I can tell, Starfire/Starfall/Focus will be a common DPS setup.

aceofsween · 02/26/10, 6:26 PM

Elwood,
If that's the case, then I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression that they would get hit by them so I've avoided using Starfall during that fight since it doesn't really have a major impact on your overall dps currently. I do know that Starfall will hit the Kinetic Bombs (or they did the first week of BPs' release), which is something of a gift and a curse. Either way, distance away from the Blood Princes isn't much of an issue (although positioning for Valanar is something to consider).

• Hamlet · 02/26/10, 6:42 PM

I put my thoughts on the way Glyph choice will work out into the guide. It's a bit messy, but I think is correct.

sofathan · 02/26/10, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

If you ignore the -3% hit debuff, then you can run either Glyph of IS as the third and leave Moonfire out of the rotation, or run Glyph of Starfire as the third and leave IS out of the rotation. The two come up very close in DPS on the spreadsheet; people would probably have to check in individual gear. I'd probably favor Glyph of IS though; the sheet slightly overestimates Glyph of Starfire.

Assuming you want to provide the raid debuff though, which is worthwhile in serious content since the DPS loss is very small, the best third Glyph looks to be Starfire. It's almost twice as good as Moonfire on paper, so even if you don't get the extension every time, it's probably better. This is why I was annoyed at the "Glyph of Starfire is useless without Glyph of Moonfire" posts. It's not, and best I can tell, Starfire/Starfall/Focus will be a common DPS setup.

As you said, it does depend on gear. I plugged myself into the 3.3.3 WC and set up a glyph set-up of Focus/Starfire/Starfall; the total DPS contribution was 648.62. When I set up a Focus/Starfall/Insect Swarm glyph set-up, the contributed DPS was 650.81. The difference is indeed small. For me, the F/S/IS set-up provided a higher DPS on paper, but if you want the added raid utility of the IS debuff the F/S/S glyph set-up isn't too far behind imo (not counting the dps loss of casting an unglyphed IS).

EDIT: I looked at your update to the glyphs on the guide and it makes perfect sense. Moonfire/Starfall/Starfire provided a 605.77 DPS contribution, but as you said the GoFocus may not work on every fight.

aceofsween · 02/26/10, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by sofathan

As you said, it does depend on gear. I plugged myself into the 3.3.3 WC and set up a glyph set-up of Focus/Starfire/Starfall; the total DPS contribution was 648.62. When I set up a Focus/Starfall/Insect Swarm glyph set-up, the contributed DPS was 650.81.

Did you also change your rotation each time you changed your glyphs? If you're using a standard 3.3 rotation, you'll have both IS and MF in your rotation most likely. If you're using a 3.3.3 rotation (and including Glyph of Starfall), then you need to alter your rotation selection based on whether you have glyphs for MF or IS.

Starfox · 02/26/10, 7:42 PM

1 down please :/

Starfox · 02/26/10, 7:44 PM

I just threw together a quick 277items profile
Profiler - Wowhead
Hope I avoided LKHC items

name=Druidt10bal4pc2
glyphs=starfire/moonfire/insect_swarm
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/mark_of_the_wild
actions+=/moonkin_form
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/faerie_fire
actions+=/typhoon,moving=1
actions+=/speed_potion
actions+=/innervate,trigger=-2000
actions+=/treants
actions+=/moonfire,if=!ticking&!eclipse
actions+=/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse
actions+=/starfall,if=!eclipse
actions+=/starfire,if=trigger_solar
actions+=/wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
actions+=/starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
actions+=/wrath

name=Druidt10bal4pc2
glyphs=starfall/focus/insect_swarm
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/mark_of_the_wild
actions+=/moonkin_form
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/faerie_fire
actions+=/typhoon,moving=1
actions+=/speed_potion
actions+=/innervate,trigger=-2000
actions+=/treants
actions+=/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse
actions+=/starfall,if=!eclipse
actions+=/starfire,if=trigger_solar
actions+=/wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
actions+=/starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
actions+=/wrath

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.3.2 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  22267 100.0%  Raid
  11172  50.1%  Druidt10bal4pc
  11114  49.9%  Druidt10bal4pc2

Player: Druidt10bal4pc night_elf druid balance 80
  DPS: 11172.0  Error=4.8  Range=843  DPR=35.3  RPS=316.9/316.3  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20855638
  Core Stats:  strength=364|96(10)  agility=365|97(10)  stamina=1998|1504(1377)  intellect=2013|1550(1377)  spirit=533|350(185)  health=27217|22277  mana=30666|26466
  Spell Stats:  power=4134|3468(3282)  hit=14.95%|13.95%(261)  crit=48.00%|40.22%(1335)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=39.68%|29.16%(956)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1800|332(0)  hit=8.96%|7.96%(261)  crit=45.95%|37.73%(1335)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=70.45%|37.91%(956)
  Defense Stats:  armor=20266|3966(3772)  blockv=0|0(0)  defense=400|400(0)  miss=9.70%|9.70%  dodge=12.94%|7.34%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=5.90%|5.90%
  Glyphs: starfire/moonfire/insect_swarm
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form
    snapshot_stats/faerie_fire/typhoon,moving=1/speed_potion/innervate,trigger=-2000
    treants/moonfire,if=!ticking&!eclipse/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse
    starfall,if=!eclipse/starfire,if=trigger_solar
    wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
    starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)/wrath
  Actions:
    insect_swarm        Count= 13.8|22.23sec  DPE= 12634| 5%  DPET= 11305  DPR=  48.0  pDPS= 581  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=94  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1851|1633|2790
    moonfire            Count= 10.3|30.15sec  DPE= 14741| 5%  DPET= 12957  DPR=  21.8  pDPS= 508  Miss=0.00%  Hit= 422| 384| 599  Crit=  883|  802| 1252|68.9%  TickCount=75  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1935|1734|2883
    starfall            Count=  3.0|116.25sec  DPE= 17331| 2%  DPET= 15022  DPR=  13.5  pDPS= 172  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=59  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=520|154|1074  CritTick=1089|322|2245|63.1%
    starfire            Count= 74.4| 3.91sec  DPE= 18179|40%  DPET= 10386  DPR=  35.6  pDPS=4511  Miss=0.00%  Hit=9129|8081|13919  Crit=18935|16889|29092|92.3%
    tier10_4pc_balance  Count=  0.0| 0.00sec  DPE=     1| 5%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 532  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=50  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=3202|327|17780
    wrath               Count=118.9| 2.42sec  DPE= 11542|41%  DPET= 10038  DPR=  32.8  pDPS=4579  Miss=0.00%  Hit=6851|4468|10853  Crit=14309| 9338|22682|62.9%
   treants  (DPS=410.6)
    treant_melee        Count= 42.0| 5.12sec  DPE=  2060| 3%  DPET=  1415  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 289  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2034|1874|2302  Crit= 4069| 3748| 4604|8.1%  Glance=1525|24.1%  Dodge=0.8%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/replenishment
  Dynamic Buffs:
    ashen_band_of_endless_destruction : start=4.6   refresh=0.0    interval= 71.6|71.6   uptime=15%  trigger=10%
    bloodlust                         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    darkglow_embroidery               : start=1.0   refresh=4.0    interval=  0.0|63.3   uptime=99%  trigger=35%
    dislodged_foreign_object          : start=5.6   refresh=0.0    interval= 56.6|56.6   uptime=36%  trigger=10%
    lunar_eclipse                     : start=8.1   refresh=0.0    interval= 36.0|36.0   uptime=40%  benefit=78%  trigger=60%
    natures_grace                     : start=19.7  refresh=167.8  interval= 15.3|1.6    uptime=92%  benefit=96%
    omen_of_clarity                   : start=12.8  refresh=0.0    interval= 21.5|21.5   uptime= 6%  benefit= 6%  trigger= 6%
    phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich   : start=3.9   refresh=0.0    interval= 94.4|94.4   uptime=23%  trigger=30%
    solar_eclipse                     : start=8.8   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.6|35.6   uptime=43%  benefit=83%
    speed_potion                      : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime= 5%
    t10_2pc_caster                    : start=10.0  refresh=2.8    interval= 28.0|21.5   uptime=23%  benefit=22%
  Procs:
     77.5 |   3.84sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     3390.5 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=48.2%)
    29796.2 : initial_mana          
     5207.9 : judgement_of_wisdom     (overflow=3.9%)
    75699.2 : moonkin_form            (overflow=18.0%)
     5775.2 : omen_of_clarity       
     9958.9 : replenishment           (overflow=45.8%)
        1.1 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=88.7%)

Player: Druidt10bal4pc2 night_elf druid balance 80
  DPS: 11114.4  Error=4.9  Range=961  DPR=36.0  RPS=308.4/307.7  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20855638
  Core Stats:  strength=364|96(10)  agility=365|97(10)  stamina=1998|1504(1377)  intellect=2013|1550(1377)  spirit=533|350(185)  health=27217|22277  mana=30666|26466
  Spell Stats:  power=4134|3468(3282)  hit=14.95%|13.95%(261)  crit=48.00%|40.22%(1335)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=39.68%|29.16%(956)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1800|332(0)  hit=8.96%|7.96%(261)  crit=45.95%|37.73%(1335)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=70.45%|37.91%(956)
  Defense Stats:  armor=20266|3966(3772)  blockv=0|0(0)  defense=400|400(0)  miss=9.70%|9.70%  dodge=12.94%|7.34%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=5.90%|5.90%
  Glyphs: starfall/focus/insect_swarm
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form
    snapshot_stats/faerie_fire/typhoon,moving=1/speed_potion/innervate,trigger=-2000
    treants/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse/starfall,if=!eclipse
    starfire,if=trigger_solar
    wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
    starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)/wrath
  Actions:
    insect_swarm        Count= 17.0|18.06sec  DPE= 12587| 6%  DPET= 11275  DPR=  47.8  pDPS= 715  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=116  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1845|1633|2790
    starfall            Count=  4.2|79.88sec  DPE= 20377| 3%  DPET= 17666  DPR=  15.9  pDPS= 284  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=82  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=613|185|1289  CritTick=1286|386|2694|63.1%
    starfire            Count= 76.4| 3.82sec  DPE= 18057|41%  DPET= 10311  DPR=  35.4  pDPS=4600  Miss=0.00%  Hit=9065|8081|13919  Crit=18917|16889|29092|91.3%
    tier10_4pc_balance  Count=  0.0| 0.00sec  DPE=     1| 5%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 544  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=50  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=3261|327|17962
    wrath               Count=121.8| 2.38sec  DPE= 11531|42%  DPET= 10032  DPR=  32.8  pDPS=4684  Miss=0.00%  Hit=6839|4468|10853  Crit=14287| 9338|22682|63.0%
   treants  (DPS=409.3)
    treant_melee        Count= 42.0| 5.12sec  DPE=  2054| 3%  DPET=  1410  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 288  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2025|1874|2302  Crit= 4052| 3748| 4604|8.1%  Glance=1519|23.8%  Dodge=0.8%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/replenishment
  Dynamic Buffs:
    ashen_band_of_endless_destruction : start=4.7   refresh=0.0    interval= 70.7|70.7   uptime=15%  trigger=10%
    bloodlust                         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    darkglow_embroidery               : start=1.0   refresh=4.0    interval=  0.0|63.2   uptime=99%  trigger=35%
    dislodged_foreign_object          : start=5.7   refresh=0.0    interval= 56.3|56.3   uptime=37%  trigger=10%
    lunar_eclipse                     : start=8.2   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.5|35.5   uptime=40%  benefit=76%  trigger=60%
    natures_grace                     : start=18.6  refresh=179.6  interval= 16.2|1.5    uptime=91%  benefit=96%
    omen_of_clarity                   : start=12.8  refresh=0.0    interval= 21.6|21.6   uptime= 6%  benefit= 6%  trigger= 6%
    phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich   : start=3.8   refresh=0.0    interval= 95.4|95.4   uptime=23%  trigger=30%
    solar_eclipse                     : start=8.9   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.3|35.3   uptime=43%  benefit=82%
    speed_potion                      : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime= 5%
    t10_2pc_caster                    : start=10.0  refresh=2.8    interval= 28.2|21.6   uptime=23%  benefit=22%
  Procs:
     81.2 |   3.67sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     3397.9 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=48.0%)
    29796.2 : initial_mana          
     5412.3 : judgement_of_wisdom     (overflow=4.6%)
    72917.6 : moonkin_form            (overflow=18.8%)
     5655.8 : omen_of_clarity       
     9941.8 : replenishment           (overflow=45.9%)
        0.7 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=91.9%)

Auras and De-Buffs:
  Constant: abominations_might/arcane_empowerment/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/blood_plague/crypt_fever
  Constant: curse_of_elements/devotion_aura/earth_and_moon/ebon_plaguebringer/elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire
  Constant: ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/frost_fever/heart_of_the_crusader/horn_of_winter/hunters_mark
  Constant: improved_faerie_fire/improved_icy_talons/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt
  Constant: infected_wounds/insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack
  Constant: mana_spring_totem/mangle/master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution
  Constant: savage_combat/strength_of_earth/sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath
  Constant: totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot/unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air
  Dynamic:

Waiting:
    All players active 100% of the time.

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 29510239
  MaxEventQueue = 42
  TargetHealth  = 6671176
  SimSeconds    = 3000052
  CpuSeconds    = 7.962
  SpeedUp       = 376796

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=1.000044 Range=1.000000 Gauss=0.999882

Wow, that's quite close :C
With Patch 3.3.3 Changes

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.3.3 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  23539 100.0%  Raid
  11895  50.5%  Druidt10bal4pc2
  11665  49.5%  Druidt10bal4pc

Player: Druidt10bal4pc night_elf druid balance 80
  DPS: 11665.1  Error=4.7  Range=871  DPR=36.8  RPS=316.8/316.2  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20855638
  Core Stats:  strength=364|96(10)  agility=365|97(10)  stamina=1998|1504(1377)  intellect=2013|1550(1377)  spirit=533|350(185)  health=27217|22277  mana=30666|26466
  Spell Stats:  power=4134|3468(3282)  hit=14.95%|13.95%(261)  crit=48.00%|40.22%(1335)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=39.68%|29.16%(956)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1800|332(0)  hit=8.96%|7.96%(261)  crit=45.95%|37.73%(1335)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=70.45%|37.91%(956)
  Defense Stats:  armor=20266|3966(3772)  blockv=0|0(0)  defense=400|400(0)  miss=9.70%|9.70%  dodge=12.94%|7.34%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=5.90%|5.90%
  Glyphs: starfire/moonfire/insect_swarm
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form
    snapshot_stats/faerie_fire/typhoon,moving=1/speed_potion/innervate,trigger=-2000
    treants/moonfire,if=!ticking&!eclipse/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse
    starfall,if=!eclipse/starfire,if=trigger_solar
    wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
    starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)/wrath
  Actions:
    insect_swarm        Count= 13.8|22.26sec  DPE= 12638| 5%  DPET= 11311  DPR=  48.2  pDPS= 581  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=94  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1851|1633|2790
    moonfire            Count= 10.3|30.16sec  DPE= 14733| 4%  DPET= 12951  DPR=  21.8  pDPS= 508  Miss=0.00%  Hit= 423| 384| 599  Crit=  884|  802| 1252|69.1%  TickCount=75  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1937|1734|2883
    starfall            Count=  3.0|116.49sec  DPE= 66447| 6%  DPET= 57584  DPR=  51.8  pDPS= 657  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=58  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1996|770|4262  CritTick=4190|1609|8907|63.0%
    starfire            Count= 74.3| 3.92sec  DPE= 18177|39%  DPET= 10389  DPR=  35.6  pDPS=4508  Miss=0.00%  Hit=9138|8081|13919  Crit=18928|16889|29092|92.3%
    tier10_4pc_balance  Count=  0.0| 0.00sec  DPE=     1| 5%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 533  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=50  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=3210|327|18049
    wrath               Count=119.0| 2.42sec  DPE= 11558|39%  DPET= 10051  DPR=  32.9  pDPS=4590  Miss=0.00%  Hit=6849|4468|10853  Crit=14327| 9338|22682|63.0%
   treants  (DPS=411.2)
    treant_melee        Count= 42.0| 5.12sec  DPE=  2063| 2%  DPET=  1417  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 289  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2034|1874|2302  Crit= 4070| 3748| 4604|8.2%  Glance=1526|24.0%  Dodge=0.8%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/replenishment
  Dynamic Buffs:
    ashen_band_of_endless_destruction : start=4.6   refresh=0.0    interval= 71.8|71.8   uptime=15%  trigger=10%
    bloodlust                         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    darkglow_embroidery               : start=1.0   refresh=4.0    interval=  0.0|63.2   uptime=99%  trigger=35%
    dislodged_foreign_object          : start=5.6   refresh=0.0    interval= 56.6|56.6   uptime=36%  trigger=10%
    lunar_eclipse                     : start=8.1   refresh=0.0    interval= 36.0|36.0   uptime=40%  benefit=78%  trigger=60%
    natures_grace                     : start=19.8  refresh=167.7  interval= 15.3|1.6    uptime=92%  benefit=96%
    omen_of_clarity                   : start=12.9  refresh=0.0    interval= 21.4|21.4   uptime= 6%  benefit= 6%  trigger= 6%
    phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich   : start=3.9   refresh=0.0    interval= 94.5|94.5   uptime=23%  trigger=30%
    solar_eclipse                     : start=8.8   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.6|35.6   uptime=43%  benefit=83%
    speed_potion                      : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime= 5%
    t10_2pc_caster                    : start=10.1  refresh=2.8    interval= 27.9|21.4   uptime=23%  benefit=22%
  Procs:
     77.2 |   3.86sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     3378.8 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=48.3%)
    29796.2 : initial_mana          
     5188.1 : judgement_of_wisdom     (overflow=3.9%)
    75724.4 : moonkin_form            (overflow=18.1%)
     5807.9 : omen_of_clarity       
     9932.0 : replenishment           (overflow=45.9%)
        0.9 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=91.1%)

Player: Druidt10bal4pc2 night_elf druid balance 80
  DPS: 11895.0  Error=5.1  Range=964  DPR=38.6  RPS=308.3/307.6  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20855638
  Core Stats:  strength=364|96(10)  agility=365|97(10)  stamina=1998|1504(1377)  intellect=2013|1550(1377)  spirit=533|350(185)  health=27217|22277  mana=30666|26466
  Spell Stats:  power=4134|3468(3282)  hit=14.95%|13.95%(261)  crit=48.00%|40.22%(1335)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=39.68%|29.16%(956)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1800|332(0)  hit=8.96%|7.96%(261)  crit=45.95%|37.73%(1335)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=70.45%|37.91%(956)
  Defense Stats:  armor=20266|3966(3772)  blockv=0|0(0)  defense=400|400(0)  miss=9.70%|9.70%  dodge=12.94%|7.34%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=5.90%|5.90%
  Glyphs: starfall/focus/insect_swarm
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form
    snapshot_stats/faerie_fire/typhoon,moving=1/speed_potion/innervate,trigger=-2000
    treants/insect_swarm,if=!ticking&!eclipse/starfall,if=!eclipse
    starfire,if=trigger_solar
    wrath,if=buff.solar_eclipse.react&(buff.solar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)
    starfire,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.react&(buff.lunar_eclipse.remains>cast_time)/wrath
  Actions:
    insect_swarm        Count= 17.0|18.05sec  DPE= 12584| 6%  DPET= 11271  DPR=  47.7  pDPS= 714  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=116  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1844|1633|2790
    starfall            Count=  4.2|80.25sec  DPE= 76302| 9%  DPET= 66102  DPR=  59.4  pDPS=1065  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=82  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2310|924|5114  CritTick=4825|1931|10688|63.0%
    starfire            Count= 76.4| 3.82sec  DPE= 18054|39%  DPET= 10311  DPR=  35.4  pDPS=4599  Miss=0.00%  Hit=9064|8081|13919  Crit=18916|16889|29092|91.2%
    tier10_4pc_balance  Count=  0.0| 0.00sec  DPE=     1| 5%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 544  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=50  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=3261|327|18363
    wrath               Count=121.8| 2.38sec  DPE= 11535|39%  DPET= 10035  DPR=  32.8  pDPS=4686  Miss=0.00%  Hit=6835|4468|10853  Crit=14292| 9338|22682|63.0%
   treants  (DPS=409.3)
    treant_melee        Count= 42.0| 5.12sec  DPE=  2054| 2%  DPET=  1410  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 288  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2026|1874|2302  Crit= 4050| 3748| 4604|8.2%  Glance=1519|24.1%  Dodge=0.8%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/replenishment
  Dynamic Buffs:
    ashen_band_of_endless_destruction : start=4.7   refresh=0.0    interval= 70.8|70.8   uptime=15%  trigger=10%
    bloodlust                         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    darkglow_embroidery               : start=1.0   refresh=4.0    interval=  0.0|63.2   uptime=99%  trigger=35%
    dislodged_foreign_object          : start=5.7   refresh=0.0    interval= 56.3|56.3   uptime=37%  trigger=10%
    lunar_eclipse                     : start=8.2   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.5|35.5   uptime=40%  benefit=76%  trigger=60%
    natures_grace                     : start=18.5  refresh=179.5  interval= 16.3|1.5    uptime=91%  benefit=96%
    omen_of_clarity                   : start=12.8  refresh=0.0    interval= 21.5|21.5   uptime= 6%  benefit= 6%  trigger= 6%
    phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich   : start=3.8   refresh=0.0    interval= 95.4|95.4   uptime=23%  trigger=30%
    solar_eclipse                     : start=8.9   refresh=0.0    interval= 35.3|35.3   uptime=43%  benefit=82%
    speed_potion                      : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime= 5%
    t10_2pc_caster                    : start=10.0  refresh=2.8    interval= 28.1|21.5   uptime=23%  benefit=22%
  Procs:
     80.9 |   3.68sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     3395.4 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=48.1%)
    29796.2 : initial_mana          
     5396.9 : judgement_of_wisdom     (overflow=4.6%)
    72930.1 : moonkin_form            (overflow=18.8%)
     5665.0 : omen_of_clarity       
     9933.2 : replenishment           (overflow=45.9%)
        1.1 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=88.7%)

Auras and De-Buffs:
  Constant: abominations_might/arcane_empowerment/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/blood_plague/crypt_fever
  Constant: curse_of_elements/devotion_aura/earth_and_moon/ebon_plaguebringer/elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire
  Constant: ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/frost_fever/heart_of_the_crusader/horn_of_winter/hunters_mark
  Constant: improved_faerie_fire/improved_icy_talons/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt
  Constant: infected_wounds/insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack
  Constant: mana_spring_totem/mangle/master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution
  Constant: savage_combat/strength_of_earth/sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath
  Constant: totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot/unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air
  Dynamic:

Waiting:
    All players active 100% of the time.

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 29510181
  MaxEventQueue = 41
  TargetHealth  = 7053936
  SimSeconds    = 3000221
  CpuSeconds    = 7.800
  SpeedUp       = 384644

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=0.999195 Range=1.000000 Gauss=0.999985

sofathan · 02/26/10, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

Did you also change your rotation each time you changed your glyphs? If you're using a standard 3.3 rotation, you'll have both IS and MF in your rotation most likely. If you're using a 3.3.3 rotation (and including Glyph of Starfall), then you need to alter your rotation selection based on whether you have glyphs for MF or IS.

The data I posted was from WC. I took it upon myself to test the glyphs in their proper rotations. I tested the F/S/IS glyph set-up on the PTR on a Heroic Target dummy in IF, away from other dummies when it had no others attacking it. I also tested my dps in the exact same situation on live, except I used the MF/IS/Starfire set-up with it's corresponding rotation. With only my buffs, I did around 600 more DPS on the PTR with the F/Starfall/IS set-up. Take that with a grain of salt though, because although I DPS'd until I dealt 1 million damage, there are plenty of factors such as RNG which can play into the Recount values (which could also be off [I am not sure if it has been updated for 3.3.3]).

I am not sure of how WC determines the DPS value of a glyph with a given rotation and the up-time of the DOTs. If I were using the F/Starfall/IS glyph setup and rotation and only casting IS to refresh my idol buff, how would WC know this and place accurate DPS values on the glyphs?

aceofsween · 02/26/10, 8:42 PM

You... didn't really answer my question, but I ended up answering my own question regardless.

Using WrathCalcs with my current gear (adding +47 SP for Mixology and +180 SP for my Spyglass), I'm getting the total DPS for Starfall/Focus/Starfire to be 10707.77 with an Eclipse/MF rotation. For Starfall/Focus/Insect Swarm glyphs using a Eclipse/IS rotation, the total is 10665.19. However, WrathCalcs over-estimates the value of the Starfire glyph and I honestly believe that you only end up extending 50% to 75% of your Moonfires, especially if you're the type who always refreshes their DoTs. If you look at the DPS contribution just from the glyphs, though they exactly the same.

Basically, if we assume that the WrathCalcs model is correct, then the discussion between which Glyph is "better" is completely moot. It will likely vary between every person depending on gear. What is interesting though is that if you do not glyph for Moonfire or IS, then it is a DPS loss (in my case, 100 DPS or so) to cast that DoT.

However with this new situation, I've recently begun to question whether or not the WrathCalcs model is accurate when it comes to DoTs. This could become quite verbose, so bear with me... (I'll be using my own WC sheet as a reference, though this should be fairly consistent to other Moonkins).

First I want to examine DoTs under Solar Eclipse. Under Solar Eclipse, Wrath has a greater DPET than Insect Swarm (difference of 1079.27). However, with IS up, Wrath has a greater DPET than without it present (difference of 196.51). In order to make up for the damage "lost" by casting IS during Eclipse, you will have to also have time to cast 6 additional Wrath (net +99.79 damage). That's fairly easy to figure out in game: if you have 6 seconds left on Eclipse or more, refresh Insect Swarm, otherwise ignore it until Eclipse ends.

Here's what bothers me though... If you have to refresh Moonfire under a Solar Eclipse, the DPET is significantly lower than Wrath. Moonfire's natural duration is only 12 seconds. My Pre-Lunar Time (basically, the time it takes me to proc Lunar Eclipse after Solar ends) is 4.78 seconds and the cast time for a Starfire after a NG proc is right at about 2 seconds. This means that after Solar Eclipse ends, it will take almost 6.78 seconds for a Starfire to go off, meaning that I would have to wait until there are 5.22 seconds left on my Eclipse before I refresh Moonfire in order to gain the full benefits of the extended duration, otherwise it will likely fall of before I can complete a Starfire cast.

Under Lunar Eclipse, everything is much simpler. Moonfire under when extended has a much higher DPET than Stafire under Eclipse (and Starfire's DPET is increased with Moonfire up). So there is no possible loss in DPS when refreshing Moonfire under Starfire except perhaps at the very end of a Lunar Eclipse where you only extend it's duration once or twice. For Insect Swarm, the reverse is true. There is never a time where ISs DPET is higher than an Eclipsed Starfire and so that implies you should never refresh it. Also, outside of Eclipse, DoTs almost always have a higher DPET than nukes, although in the case of Wrath they are very very close. Either way, it is guaranteed once you cast your DoT that the damage will be done. It's not likely you'll be casting Wrath outside of Eclipse for 15 seconds straight.

However, neither of the WrathCalcs models (Always Refresh dots or Refresh after Eclipse) account for any of this at all and to be honest I'm not sure if SimuCraft looks this closely at it either. In fact, in the case of WrathCalcs, I'm pretty sure it over estimates the value of Always Refreshing dots, while underestimating the value of Refreshing after Eclipse. This would appear to be consistent with what many high DPS moonkin are seeing with most having lower DoT uptimes than "normal". Now granted, this is specific to my gear, but I'm fairly certain these results can be mirrored in the majority of other Moonkin and like I said, they do appear to be consistent with what we have seen from other Moonkin in general.

• Hamlet · 02/27/10, 12:58 AM

The short answer is that yeah, a closer look at DoT refreshing patterns has been an open issue for a little while. If you have any ideas for other DoT refreshing schemes to try modeling, that would be good. I might try one with Moonfire cast only once per rotation (just after Lunar ends). Maybe something like Moonfire after Solar ends, IS after Lunar ends.

Why do you think WC underestimates the Refresh After Eclipse rotation? I think that one is pretty accurate. The primary systematic error in its model (that isn't easy to fix) is that it assumes all Moonfires are fully extended in the Always Refresh rotation.

Zifrelm · 02/27/10, 1:56 AM

In fact, in the case of WrathCalcs, I'm pretty sure it over estimates the value of Always Refreshing dots, while underestimating the value of Refreshing after Eclipse.

From a DPET perspective, refreshing dots right after an Eclipse seems pretty safe, but it gets tricky when you consider that you're delaying your next Eclipse by a global, guaranteed. I'm not sure how if or how that's handled in WC.

On a slightly different note, assuming one were to take GoFocus on a fight where it was reasonable to do so, what would be the best way to ensure that you're within 18 yards (or 21, or whatever it is)? Other being good at eyeballing it, of course, or waiting until you either do or do not see the stars falling down after you cast. Are there any range-finder mods that will tell you the range to your current target?

• Hamlet · 02/27/10, 1:57 AM

Well, I quickly tried adding in a rotation in which Moonfire only is refreshed after Solar, and IS only is refreshed after Lunar. It's actually looking quite good! I won't jump to any conclusions based on just a few minutes' work--anyone who's familiarized themselves with WC can take a look at the attached sheet and see what they think.

A few issues: this has very low IS uptime, which reduces the benefit of having -3% hit debuff. The IS is worth casting though, due to the IIS buff it's providing. I should perhaps change it to put IS after both Eclipses and MF after Solar only, which would be a tiny DPS loss but probably more common in practice. Also, you can't leave IS out of the rotation entirely and then refresh Moonfire only once per cycle, since that would let the Idol buff drop.

So at the moment, where I think this is going is that the standard rotation will be to refresh both DoT's as Solar ends, but refresh IS only as Lunar ends, using Glyphs of Starfall/Starfire/Focus.

aceofsween · 02/27/10, 2:27 AM

First of all, with regards to a low uptime, that is something I expected honestly. If you go over the parses in WoL or whichever sight you choose, you will notice that on many stand-still fights (like Saurfang and Festergut) the Boomkins who are closer to the top have lower DoT uptimes than normal.

Also, to answer your earlier question: I think that the "Refresh After Eclipse" model is a slight underestimation because there are times when it is in fact better to wait until your Eclipse ends in order to reapply your DoTs (particularly, reapplying IS after Lunar). Perhaps it's incorrect to say that one is overestimating while the other is underestimating. In fact, I suspect it's probably more likely that the "always refresh" model overvalues the idea of having a high DoT uptime for the reason that I spelled out before.

As far as your WrathCalcs model specifically, it's extremely difficult (or at the least, overly complex) to actually map everything out because everything is in a constant state of flux with no solidarity between Eclipse and our DoTs. I believe trying to establish or pin down a tight rotation such as "Always do this after this" will never work for Moonkins currently. I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure how WrathCalcs comes up with it's rotational values; I simply haven't given it that close of a look.

What I do know is that in order to obtain your highest DPS, when you cast a spell you must choose the one that will net you the highest DPS. For that reason, I believe that pre-casting MF before Solar ends, but close enough to where you will still extend it through Starfire, is going to provide you with the best result. Reapplying after Solar Eclipse ends is "playing it safe" as there is a much greater chance of having MF fall off before you can refresh it. That sort of makes me wonder about the extreme ends of our DPS, as RNG plays a fairly large factor in this. It's also hard to map out when MF will fall off in our Eclipse Rotation. Usually, at the start of a rotation, I notice that it will fall off either right before Solar Eclipse ends, or a few seconds after it begins. It really depends on how favorable the RNG is. And then again how favorable it is if I can proc a Lunar Eclipse quick enough to extend a reapplied MF.

Editted to add: I'm not suggesting only refreshing MF once per cycle. I believe you'll end up refreshing it twice. Using my WrathCalcs values again, it about 5 seconds (rounding up) to proc Lunar eclipse, which will then increase the duration of the MF by 9 total seconds. By the time Eclipse ends, there'll be about 1 second left before MF falls off and I'll be in the midst of casting another Starfire (to proc a Solar Eclipse). Whether or not the Starfire I am casting will proc a Lunar Eclipse, I'm still going to queue up another MF. I would have to choose between queuing another Starfire, refreshing Moonfire, or waiting to see if it crits (which is completely out of the question). I choose MF because it has a higher DPET than Starfire, and in the event that it does crit and proc Solar Eclipse, I will be able to start casting Wraths about 1 second faster. Either way, at some point, that Moonfire will fall off during the Solar Eclipse. When you choose to refresh it... depends on what we've been discussing.

M� nze · 02/27/10, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

On a slightly different note, assuming one were to take GoFocus on a fight where it was reasonable to do so, what would be the best way to ensure that you're within 18 yards (or 21, or whatever it is)? Other being good at eyeballing it, of course, or waiting until you either do or do not see the stars falling down after you cast. Are there any range-finder mods that will tell you the range to your current target?

Actually there are plenty of "range-check"-addons out there, cRange2 is one for example.

Since 3.3.3 rotation suggests to use only one DoT at a particular point of time, would [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] lose its DpS value, sice there will be less sources to trigger it?

@Starfox
Your Profile seems pretty strage to me,having 40% in casterform and still sockeling 12sp/crit gems.