Moonkin Raiding - Page 225

wyattboyuz · 03/01/10, 8:54 PM

The only time you can lose dps from languish is when something dies before it has finished ticking. There is no way to change playstyle to affect languish other than casting wrath/starfire more.

Jivv · 03/01/10, 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by wyattboyuz

The only time you can lose dps from languish is when something dies before it has finished ticking. There is no way to change playstyle to affect languish other than casting wrath/starfire more.

Doesn't languish tick twice before it falls off? I thought that forcing it to tick once while refreshing a dot and then refreshing languish would be a slight dps increase? I'm sorry, I might be thinking of the mechanic as something other than it really is, but I thought that it did the following:

Current Languish: 1000 dmg assumption over 4 seconds.
Damage every 2 seconds = 500 dmg.

Force it to tick once = 500 dmg done, but then languish is refreshed so when being refreshed, the original 1000 damage is added onto.

Is that how the mechanic works?

sapphire1987 · 03/01/10, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jivv

Doesn't languish tick twice before it falls off? I thought that forcing it to tick once while refreshing a dot and then refreshing languish would be a slight dps increase? I'm sorry, I might be thinking of the mechanic as something other than it really is, but I thought that it did the following:

Current Languish: 1000 dmg assumption over 4 seconds.
Damage every 2 seconds = 500 dmg.

Force it to tick once = 500 dmg done, but then languish is refreshed so when being refreshed, the original 1000 damage is added onto.

Is that how the mechanic works?

Originally Posted by Jivv

Doesn't languish tick twice before it falls off? I thought that forcing it to tick once while refreshing a dot and then refreshing languish would be a slight dps increase? I'm sorry, I might be thinking of the mechanic as something other than it really is, but I thought that it did the following:

Current Languish: 1000 dmg assumption over 4 seconds.
Damage every 2 seconds = 500 dmg.

Force it to tick once = 500 dmg done, but then languish is refreshed so when being refreshed, the original 1000 damage is added onto.

Is that how the mechanic works?

The Languish works like ignite:

Suppose the total languish damage as a pool.

1.When your SF & Warth crits, this pool will receive 7% of the critical damage.
2.When it tick for once, the amount of damage will be removed from the pool.
3.If your spell crits again, the addition damage will be added into the pool with the damage remainning in it.

For example,

1.SF crits for 20000 Pool=0+1400=1400
2.Warth crits for 15000 Pool=1400+1050=2450
3.Languish first tick for 1225 Pool=2450-1225=1225
4.Warth crits for 15000 again Pool=1225+1050=2275
5.Languish first tick for 1137 Pool=2275-1137=1138
6.Languish second tick for 1138 Pool=1138-1138=0

Jivv · 03/01/10, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by sapphire1987

The Languish works like ignite:

Suppose the total languish damage as a pool.

1.When your SF & Warth crits, this pool will receive 7% of the critical damage.
2.When it tick for once, the amount of damage will be removed from the pool.
3.If your spell crits again, the addition damage will be added into the pool with the damage remainning in it.

For example,

1.SF crits for 20000 Pool=0+1400=1400
2.Warth crits for 15000 Pool=1400+1050=2450
3.Languish first tick for 1225 Pool=2450-1225=1225
4.Warth crits for 15000 again Pool=1225+1050=2275
5.Languish first tick for 1137 Pool=2275-1137=1138
6.Languish second tick for 1138 Pool=1138-1138=0

Ahh, okay thanks a lot for clarifying that. I had no idea!

slanderousne · 03/02/10, 9:47 AM

Is there a point where Idol of steadfast renewal passes idol of lunar eclipse? I was testing it last night and my average wrath hits were for considerably more, about 1600 on crits and 600 on non-crits(during eclipse). I did however crit alot less, so just wondering at what percentile of passive crit from gear can we possibly switch to this without a dps loss(and if its even worth it).

feior · 03/02/10, 9:51 AM

Using Arawethion's spreadsheet, I plugged in my stats in non-moonkin form:

3177 SP, 1106 crit (which is about 34% on the character sheet), 678 haste, and 294 spirit, 268 hit. The spreadsheet takes into account full buffs (including moonkin form) when calculating expected dps.

Things to note:
- Over soft-crit cap during lunar
- Obviously over haste/hit cap, not that it's anything special
- Low amount of spirit

So the result I have is 10617.66 dps using "Eclipse, MF/IS" rotation. Then I upped each stat by 1 point to see the resulting dps, and merely subtrated 10617.66 to get the difference in dps.

Since I'm over the crit soft cap, you can see that the value of crit dimishes under haste. Spellpower still has the strongest foothold. Spirit is just crap (oh look, it's about 30% the worth of spell power - how predictable). And Intellect... well try not to gem intellect.

Over haste/crit soft caps
----------------------
Default DPS: 10617.66
Stat             DPS gain  	DPS		Normalized
+1 spellpower	 +2.00	   	10619.66	1.00
+1 haste	 +1.28	   	10618.94	0.64
+1 crit  	 +1.13	   	10618.79	0.57
+1 spirit	 +0.66	   	10618.32	0.33
+1 intellect	 +0.43	   	10618.09	0.22

I did some further stat tests too to see how each stat fared when under the soft haste/crit caps (300/900 rating respectively). I'm ignoring spirit/int for obvious reasons (spirit will likely still have the usual 30% the worth of spellpower as expected). Haste easily trumps spellpower in this scenario, but keep in mind that the 300/900 rating assumption is a bit sketchy. However, it gives us some insight as to the stat weights. So if you're just gearing up, keep note that haste has equal, if not better, value than spellpower and crit.

Under both haste/crit soft caps
----------------------
Default DPS: 9738.03
Stat		DPS gain	DPS		Normalized
+1 spellpower	+1.83		9739.86		1.00
+1 haste	+2.46		9740.49		1.34
+1 crit		+1.48		9739.51		0.81

Finally I tried this with haste being over the haste cap, and crit being under the crit cap (405 haste/900 crit). Here haste sharply dimishes in value compared to spellpower and is even below the value of crit. So this is probably the general scenario for many boomkins (being over the haste cap, under the crit cap).

Over haste/Under crit soft caps
----------------------
Default DPS: 9990.97
Stat            DPS gain  	DPS		Normalized
+1 spellpower	+1.87		9992.84		1.00
+1 haste	+1.32		9992.29		0.71
+1 crit		+1.51		9992.48		0.81

I hope this was helpful in deciding which stat might be a better choice given the current levels of gear.

• Hamlet · 03/02/10, 9:52 AM

Increasing your Wrath damage by 70 increased your crits by 1600 with talents and buffs?

I'm going to start reporting posts that ask "is Idol of X better than Idol of Lunar Eclipse?" unless it's clear that the poster has compared them in the spreadsheet and has an intelligent comment on why it might be wildly wrong (which, so far, is never).

• Hamlet · 03/02/10, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by feior

Then I upped each stat by 1 point to see the resulting dps, and merely subtrated 10617.66 to get the difference in dps.

Er, you know this is exactly what WC already does inherently? That's what the "DPS" column immediately to the right of each stat is.

feior · 03/02/10, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Er, you know this is exactly what WC already does inherently? That's what the "DPS" column immediately to the right of each stat is.

Oh, that doesn't appear on the spreadsheet (Err: 522 it says). Hmmm I think it's because I'm using OpenOffice (I'm not sure what you're using).

• Hamlet · 03/02/10, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by feior

Oh, that doesn't appear on the spreadsheet (Err: 522 it says). Hmmm I think it's because I'm using OpenOffice (I'm not sure what you're using).

Yeah, the data table feature isn't supported by OO. You should probably just open it in Excel if you want to look at that kind of analysis; it's exactly what most of the machinery in the sheet is for.

slanderousne · 03/02/10, 10:11 AM

Alright well ill provide base values of the spell to fit my assumptions:
The idol says it provides 70 addional damage correct?
Without the idol wraths damage range is 612-690(non-eclipsed) 839-941 (eclipsed)
With the idol wraths damage range was 689-767(+77/11%) 940-1046 (+101-105/11%).
Does this difference change the scaling is moreso my question.

Starfox · 03/02/10, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by slanderousne

Alright well ill provide base values of the spell to fit my assumptions:
The idol says it provides 70 addional damage correct?
Without the idol wraths damage range is 612-690(non-eclipsed) 839-941 (eclipsed)
With the idol wraths damage range was 689-767(+77/11%) 940-1046 (+101-105/11%).
Does this difference change the scaling is moreso my question.

The idol adds 70 base damage, so the idol scales with everything that increases wrath's basedamage:
MSS, IIS, E+M, Solar, Moonfury, but not WoC (because it adds the damage directly, not through spellpower like the SF idol)
So what I get on a solar wrath crit is:
70 *1.04*1.1*1.03*1.4*1.06*1.13*2.09 = 289
That still needs quite a few multipliers to get in the range of 1600 (toc twins with 100stack debuff?)

slanderousne · 03/02/10, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

That still needs quite a few multipliers to get in the range of 1600 (toc twins with 100stack debuff?)

Actually a really high chance of that starfox(i really shouldn't bolster numbers when im tired)

It was just an idea I figured was worth trying considering how much above the softcap some of us are getting in current gear levels

feior · 03/02/10, 11:36 AM

It is sad that after I reached crit/haste cap, there aren't any good stats anymore except spellpower.

GC commented on fire mages getting a glyph rework "because some Fire mages were getting such absurdly high crit rates that even more crit wasn't attractive". I assume that some mages were hitting crit caps of sort, and this glyph was to work around that problem - however I haven't heard of such news (after some simple searching on google and wow-heroes for top fire mages). Maybe it's because the mage market is flooded by arcane specs and I can't find them.

It's just odd that a useful mage glyph is being completely changed to make a particular stat become more appealing to higher end mages when GC seemed hesitant about a similar idea for a proposed Wrath glyph. Maybe I'm just being picky and I know the glyph's new tooltip will explicitly show novice mage users that it's an obvious dps increase, but the new glyph effectively just swaps 5% crit for 5% haste. I believe most fire mages will likely have the fireball glyph, so I think one should assume that most fire mages will simply have 5% crit added to their fireball at this time. If so, then...

Patch 3.3.2: x% crit for fireball with y% haste
Patch 3.3.3: x%-5% crit for fireball with y%+5% haste

Well it's not exactly accurate with the haste, but it's close. I'm just saying that that is a very close approximation of what the moonkins want with their wrath except backwards. So...

Patch 3.3.2: x% haste for wrath with y% crit or damage
Patch 3.3.3: x% - 5% haste for wrath with y% + 5% crit or damage

I commented about something similar to this in the wow forums, and said that fire mages got the band-aid that moonkins wanted... but with the lack of news on crit-capped fire mages, I'm hesitant to believe that the fire mages even needed the band-aid.

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Yeah, the data table feature isn't supported by OO. You should probably just open it in Excel if you want to look at that kind of analysis; it's exactly what most of the machinery in the sheet is for.

Well I installed Excel and it's a nice spreadsheet. Just a little alarming when I punch in stats like 500sp, 100 int/crit/spirit/haste/hit and come up with 3k dps. I didn't know green geared moonkins could reach such high dps while lasting 46 mins until oom.

• Hamlet · 03/02/10, 11:44 AM

So many things are wrong with the current Moonkin system. My position has basically been, "just keep our DPS in the ballpark for now, worry about rebuilding the whole class in Cataclysm." It's the last tier, we can put up with all the silly behavior of NG and Eclipse and weaks DoTs a little longer; they can't fix it all on the fly anyway. I mean, maybe fixing one of the actual problems would have been better than buffing Starfall, but it doesn't matter too much either way.