Conclusion: Druid set is utter crap compared to all other caster sets. They traded our dmg stats into spirit
And if the 4pc bonus has 3% chance to proc/tick I suspect that we will see a lot of druids with 2 pieces of T8 and cloth in other slots.
What happened with NG was before it would drop wraths cast time by .5 seconds but it wouldnt do the same for the gcd of wrath. So if you had a 1.5 second wrath cast time, it would drop to 1 sec but the gcd of wrath would still be at 1.5 sec.
I am pretty sure that this is from before haste was allowed to lower the gcd to 1.0 seconds.
Actually I misposted, it was "World of Warcraft Client Patch 3.0.2: Echoes of Doom" where I pulled that from, which should be the one right before the expansion went live. The haste affecting GCD was "2.4.0 (2008-03-25)". So haste affecting GCD was a good 7-8 months in place.
Originally Posted by Latas
What happened with NG was before it would drop wraths cast time by .5 seconds but it wouldnt do the same for the gcd of wrath. So if you had a 1.5 second wrath cast time, it would drop to 1 sec but the gcd of wrath would still be at 1.5 sec.
That was the problem, but the fix didn't reduce the global cooldown by .5, it reduces it by 50%. So with no haste, it should reduce it by .75. Thus at 1 second GCD it reduces it to .5.
Hence the original question remains, if it reduces the GCD of wrath by 50%, isn't is possible to throw wraths faster than 1 second?
Havent had a chance to run Ulduar yet, but has anyone noticed big mana issues in there? I normaly didnt run any mana regen talents apart from omen of clarity, but I am expecting that with the much longer fights in ulduar, some mana regen talents may be needed, and if so, just how much more regen is needed?
Moonglow is fairly easy to get, and for just a minor dps loss, but will we actually need to get dreamstate and/or intensity? With my current gear (Half topped out on 25 man gear) my innervate is just about useless on the ptr, giving back at most 5k mana thanks to the nerf to spirit and with the massive loss of crits giving back mana aswell as the loss of wisdom or totem, just how badly will we be strapped for mana when Ulduar does come out?
I can fairly easily pick up either dreamstate or intensity (Would be dreamstate with my current gear, gaining a bit more mp5 from that one), at the cost of aoe talents, but will having just one of those talents actually be enough? One of those pretty much covers the loss of wisdom/totem, but will we actually have to abandon either faerie fire or improved insect swarm to pick up the other aswell?
And if we do need to drop one of those talents, can our dps still be competitive with the loss of even more crit?
Hopefully I am just being paranoid and scared of losing the dps I finaly managed to get, but any opinion would be welcomed.
Hence the original question remains, if it reduces the GCD of wrath by 50%, isn't is possible to throw wraths faster than 1 second?
No. The implementation of it doesn't matter much (Pretty sure they add 50% haste to the GCD calculation), but the result is that it follows the same rules as every other spell. You cannot reduce the GCD past 1s. The only effect I'm aware that allow reduction past 1s is one of the Shaman Shock Glyphs. This has been tested multiple times.
Has balance druid tried to put together a rough BiS list from the new uludar stuff? I know the loot tables might be a bit incomplete, but it seems like most items have been discovered.
I was looking over it myself and its really, really depressing. Every single leather spell peice seems to have spirit on it. There doesn't seem to be any way around it. We either get crit, or haste, but not both. Because we're going to get tons of spirit. wuuuuuuuu.
Looking at the cloth gear doesn't paint a prettier picture either. It looks like spirit is going to be shoved down our throats whether we want it or not.
Regarding which eclipse is better, Lunar or Solar, i've read all kinds of answers; they're similar, lunar is better and solar is better. Which made me thing about something.
Was it taken into account: (I'm favoring Wrath eclipse with these points)
1. The no longer dependancy on RNG if you Starfire to proc Wrath Eclipse (100% chance on crit)
2. The time it would take to proc Starfire Eclipse with even less crit
3 - The exclusion of the chance to have the instant Starfire proc when you're using Wrath to proc a new Starfire Eclipse (giving a chance to lead to the wrong eclipse), this if T8 4P set bonus turns out to beviable enough to go for
Further more, is there any ETA for when will it be possible to have the mathematical support for which is the unquestionable better eclipse to proc?
Has balance druid tried to put together a rough BiS list from the new uludar stuff? I know the loot tables might be a bit incomplete, but it seems like most items have been discovered.
Ghost has mentioned that the entire Ulduar loot tables are as expansive as the entire BC loot tables for all raids (from KZ through SW). I'm currently compiling at BiS list for all specs for my guild, but this is extremely close to impossible at this point in time.
If no one has done so at the appropriate point in time, I'll post the MK Ulduar BiS items at some point in the next few weeks. Obviously, this list will be based on certain stat weights (I will likely assume any MK is hit capped in my BiS list).
Regarding which eclipse is better, Lunar or Solar, i've read all kinds of answers; they're similar, lunar is better and solar is better. Which made me thing about something.
Was it taken into account: (I'm favoring Wrath eclipse with these points)
1. The no longer dependancy on RNG if you Starfire to proc Wrath Eclipse (100% chance on crit)
2. The time it would take to proc Starfire Eclipse with even less crit
3 - The exclusion of the chance to have the instant Starfire proc when you're using Wrath to proc a new Starfire Eclipse (giving a chance to lead to the wrong eclipse), this if T8 4P set bonus turns out to beviable enough to go for
I don't know what maths has to say exactly on this but if we consider that lunar eclipse is slightly better however solar is not that much behind it means mainly that we of course should still try to proc the lunar one but what would be different from live server state, if solar eclipse does happen for some reason it won't mean any serious dps loss.
Has balance druid tried to put together a rough BiS list from the new uludar stuff? I know the loot tables might be a bit incomplete, but it seems like most items have been discovered.
I was looking over it myself and its really, really depressing. Every single leather spell peice seems to have spirit on it. There doesn't seem to be any way around it. We either get crit, or haste, but not both. Because we're going to get tons of spirit. wuuuuuuuu.
Looking at the cloth gear doesn't paint a prettier picture either. It looks like spirit is going to be shoved down our throats whether we want it or not.
The loot tables are still very incomplete, so any BiS list is inherently flawed. Don't forget that the hard modes have their own (additional) loot tables, and most of those are unknown.
By and large your impression is correct. All leather spell power gear (except T8 pants) and approximately 80% of cloth gear has spirit. Gear competition is going to be very unpleasant for anyone who doesn't scale as well with spirit as they do with crit and haste.
The thing to remember is Ulduar actually carries 2 full tiers of gear. It still might be better to use the ilevel 239 gloves with spirit then the ilevel 226 ones without it.
Originally Posted by Dreavgona
Havent had a chance to run Ulduar yet, but has anyone noticed big mana issues in there? I normaly didnt run any mana regen talents apart from omen of clarity, but I am expecting that with the much longer fights in ulduar, some mana regen talents may be needed, and if so, just how much more regen is needed?
Moonglow is fairly easy to get, and for just a minor dps loss, but will we actually need to get dreamstate and/or intensity? With my current gear (Half topped out on 25 man gear) my innervate is just about useless on the ptr, giving back at most 5k mana thanks to the nerf to spirit and with the massive loss of crits giving back mana aswell as the loss of wisdom or totem, just how badly will we be strapped for mana when Ulduar does come out?
I can fairly easily pick up either dreamstate or intensity (Would be dreamstate with my current gear, gaining a bit more mp5 from that one), at the cost of aoe talents, but will having just one of those talents actually be enough? One of those pretty much covers the loss of wisdom/totem, but will we actually have to abandon either faerie fire or improved insect swarm to pick up the other aswell?
And if we do need to drop one of those talents, can our dps still be competitive with the loss of even more crit?
Hopefully I am just being paranoid and scared of losing the dps I finaly managed to get, but any opinion would be welcomed.
Ulduar is going to be harder on our mana. Between losing BoW/totem and getting less mana from crit you'll definitely feel your mana pool is exhausted faster, but the difference there is not overwhelming. It's not being able to rely on Innervate in long/hard fights that will affect our play style more, though.
It'll probably come down to picking up 2-3 points of Intensity or Dreamstate (in addition to OOC) depending on gear. I ran some numbers on fight lengths but the results were unreasonable, so I'm going to go over my math before posting.
Ulduar is going to be harder on our mana. Between losing BoW/totem and getting less mana from crit you'll definitely feel your mana pool is exhausted faster, but the difference there is not overwhelming. It's not being able to rely on Innervate in long/hard fights that will affect our play style more, though.
Where did you see we are getting less mana from crit? As far as I've seen its still 2% of our total mana per crit.
Where did you see we are getting less mana from crit? As far as I've seen its still 2% of our total mana per crit.
He means that we have less crit inherently - T8 has less crit on it than T7, we'll probably lose the T7 4 piece bonus (5%) and they've changed Improved Scorch from 10% crit to 5% crit.
He means that we have less crit inherently - T8 has less crit on it than T7, we'll probably lose the T7 4 piece bonus (5%) and they've changed Improved Scorch from 10% crit to 5% crit.
Exactly. Also, when you pick up a mana talent those points will most likely come out of IIS or IFF, both of which are crit talents.
The first mana talents anyone should pick up is moonglow, solely for the fact that you're only giving up improved moonfire for it. Dropping 2 points of moonfire for moonglow loses you about 1% of your DPS for a 6% reduction in the cost of your main spells.
One thing that people need to remember with regards to mana regeneration - we are going to be gaining int (which increases the value of all mana pool based mana regen abilities), and likely a lot of spirit, from our gear upgrades. If people are running with no extra mana regen talents now (that is, 1 point in moonglow only), then you should be able to be fine with minimal extra talents after a few gear upgrades. Remember especially that you won't be losing 4t7 instantly. Dual spec is coming in too, so you should easily be able to play around with different specs with more/less regen and switch between them if required for longer/shorter fights. Personally I'm going to be running with a more AoE focused spec with a lot of regen, and a more single target/less AoE focused spec with minimal regen (whatever that turns out to be). Discussing the slight variations of different specs isn't much use at this point.
Ghost has mentioned that the entire Ulduar loot tables are as expansive as the entire BC loot tables for all raids (from KZ through SW). I'm currently compiling at BiS list for all specs for my guild, but this is extremely close to impossible at this point in time.
If no one has done so at the appropriate point in time, I'll post the MK Ulduar BiS items at some point in the next few weeks. Obviously, this list will be based on certain stat weights (I will likely assume any MK is hit capped in my BiS list).
I've done my best to simulate a BiS list using the data currently on WoWhead and the development version of Rawr. Points to ponder:
1) Most of the BiS gear looks to be the cloth non-spirit items. Big surprise there.
2) Only 2 pieces of T8 were selected. The new math based on Starfox's uptime assumptions shows 4T8 at 3% to be only ~45 DPS if that, and taking the three nicer cloth pieces far outweighs the set bonus at this time. The pieces the optimizer chose were shoulders and legs.
3) Generally speaking, the highest ilevel gear was chosen. The ilevel 239 neck, gloves, and staff are on the list.
4) Holdovers from T7 are the Pennant Cloak from Sarth+2/3, the Signet from KT, and the Illustration of the Dragon Soul. I didn't check the idol, nor do I plan to, as I imagine the Starfire and Wrath idols are better (depending on which Eclipse you're proccing).
Given the nerf to spirit-based mana regen in 3.1, does Intensity still trump Dreamstate? If we need to pick up mana-longevity talents, where will we get the most bang for our talent point buck? Searches for this kind of info have only turned up pre-3.1 data.
Given the nerf to spirit-based mana regen in 3.1, does Intensity still trump Dreamstate? If we need to pick up mana-longevity talents, where will we get the most bang for our talent point buck? Searches for this kind of info have only turned up pre-3.1 data.
While-casting regen has not changed at all. If you were doing fine without it pre-3.1, you will do fine without it post-3.1. The only thing that remains to be seen is if we will need MORE mana regen due to the nature of the fights, less crit giving us fewer Moonkin Form procs, etc.
Yes, and my question is this: if we do discover that we need to put a point or two into mana regen talents, where are those points best spent? Since Intensity is a percentage of your out of combat regen (which has been nerfed), is it now inferior to Dreamstate (which scales off Intellect), or does it still have the edge?
Yes, and my question is this: if we do discover that we need to put a point or two into mana regen talents, where are those points best spent? Since Intensity is a percentage of your out of combat regen (which has been nerfed), is it now inferior to Dreamstate (which scales off Intellect), or does it still have the edge?
Intensity's overall effect has not changed, though. Oo5SR regen has been nerfed, but Intensity has been buffed to keep the same I5SR regen.
03/21/09, 9:47 AM
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