Moonkin Raiding - Page 29

rayiish · 01/23/09, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Askia32

I'm trying to figure out how to maximize my DPS. I just turned 80 last week, so my gear isn't where I want it to be at the moment. I have a lot more spell haste which is nice, but I prefer spell crit. In 25naxx, I'm usually between 6-12 on the charts, averaging about 2.4k DPS.

I don't have a cycle, but I have rules. I start off with IS, MF, than spam wrath till Eclipse procs, refreshing IS and MF when necessary. I try to keep IS and MF up at all times. When Eclipse procs, I spam SF for full duration, than refresh IS and MF, and spam SF for remainder of the eclipse CD, than rinse and repeat(My apologies if this was hard to understand).

Any tips on how to improve my DPS would be greatly appreciated.
Here is a link to my armory

Your problem is that even tho you have all that epic gear, you are still not hit capped nor is your crit high enough. You need to get spell hit to capped and your Crit to around 50% with raid buffs. Getting some Valorous pieces such as Helm and Shoulders would help you with the hit.

Starcloud · 01/23/09, 9:47 AM

At first I would say yes, get more crit but than I do an armory-inspect on Ashaera seeing pretty low crit but very high haste, and outperforming me big time.
Also a higher amount of SP but trinkets can give a wrong idea, Spider vs dying curse for example gives almost 100 power more on the char overview.
Also pro's make up, I get my buff from alchemy flasks not viewable on my armory spellpower.

Couldn't find a real gear topic so ask here as here it is about raiding in general.
I see many of you with the cloth legs and waists, my guild gives prio on those items to all cloth casters over me, putting me so far back at the prioline i'll never get them, specially with our droprates(10+raids, 0 idols)
Is my guilds loot system retarded or am I selfish wanting an equal chance on those items as cloth casters??

• Adoriele · 01/23/09, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Starcloud

Couldn't find a real gear topic so ask here as here it is about raiding in general.
I see many of you with the cloth legs and waists, my guild gives prio on those items to all cloth casters over me, putting me so far back at the prioline i'll never get them, specially with our droprates(10+raids, 0 idols)
Is my guilds loot system retarded or am I selfish wanting an equal chance on those items as cloth casters??

Neither. It's really up to your guild how to handle it, unfortunately. Yes, cloth is better (in some cases - BIS gear seems to be 4T7 + Maly10 Leather boots, + 3 cloth pieces), but it's not so much better that it's mandatory (about 50 DPS difference from wearing all leather). Since clothies don't have the option of wearing leather to make up the difference, most guilds will prioritize cloth to them, especially if it's a Loot Council system. You may be able to take cloth in a DKP system, but I'd suggest making sure it's only the BIS pieces (Maly25 pants, Sarth25 wrists, Thaddius25 belt), and don't be afraid to take the leather instead if it drops.

Silkworm · 01/24/09, 10:20 AM

I'm not a full-time Moonkin. So most of the real good gear is closed to me. (such as this [Extract of Necromantic Power]which dropped last night but was given to a full-time dps) I have been testing and improving myself thanks to all commenters here. Anyway I made a haste heavy gear (which comes with resto gear mostly) and I have done 4600 dps in a 2'50" Patchwerk kill Wow Web Stats . Here is my build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft :
My comments for the would be Moonkins:
1- Take treants. As you will see in my log had they been there they can easily do 50K dmg during heroism. If you can bribe a dps warrior to refresh Battle Shout after they are summoned they can do better. (Here is link Wow Web Stats to previous patch where I had Treants. Click on my name there Ciang to see the details)
2- Do not take Genesis. %5 to IS and MF is moot. (See my log and calculate the EXTRA damage those 5 points gave me.)
3- ImpFF (If no SP) IS and MF and Wrath until eclipse and Starfire spam works very very fine with almost any gear - condition being that you are hit capped.
4- If you have to move around to keep your dps going use wrath. Refresh MF and IS as necessary.
5- I have no mana issues. Raid buffed crit level (20ish) is just enough in almost all fights. I run around 700ish haste gear and 197 hit. I use a hit food +40 and almost always there is a dranei around to stick to for the final %1 hit. So refresh those MF and IS whenever you can. Do not take any mana talents. IF you have mana issues, use innervate glyph with a spirit weapon and full your mana. This is better than spending a few talents to get mana regen.
6- Get Incription JW or Enchant as they give more bonus to dps than any other profession. I have alchemy and herbing as I'm normally resto
7- I can easily say that with a few pieces of gear 5k dps is not a dream. (In a 3 min patchwerk kill)
8- As I'm resto I used all my badges and tokens for resto gear. 4xt7 (Valorous) looks worth the bonus. +%5 crit on wrath and Starfire is really good. Do not take heroes set. Its really worthless. Get into a few pug Nax 25 and you get better gear. But still even without any set gear 4600 dps is possible.
9- IS MF and Starfire glyphs are the best for raiding in my opinion.
10- Do not use ImpFF if there is a Shadow Priest. It saves a GCD.
11- This will be my talent with a few extra left to give around according to your play style. I find Moonkin Frenzy also helps in heroics and farming so I give to it usually. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft If you have mana issues swap 2 points in genesis with moonglow.

These are my accumulated comments after raiding as Moonkin for a few weeks. I hope they help. If you check my armory chances are that you will find me in resto gear.

Oh thanks Adoriele for the Add-On. It makes raiding easier. At the end of the day if you can pull 5k with full dps gear and professions you are good. From there on its luck, skill and raid setup and to squeeze out every few extra dps. My respect to those who are able and did it on this forum. Most locks and mages can't do that. They are meant to push over 5K as full dpsers not us as hybrids.

dukes · 01/24/09, 10:58 AM

Silkworm, everything in your post has been stated before. Check the Moonkin Guide for Dummies, basically everything is there. As this thread is entitled "Moonkin Raiding" giving advice such as taking Owlkin Frenzy for heroics and farming is slightly off.

I also want to point out that:

Do not take heroes set. Its really worthless. Get into a few pug Nax 25 and you get better gear.

This advice is misplaced. If you take this mentality, you might as well be in greens until the point at which you can get best in slot upgrades.

Marauding Master · 01/24/09, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Silkworm

8- As I'm resto I used all my badges and tokens for resto gear. 4xt7 (Valorous) looks worth the bonus. +%5 crit on wrath and Starfire is really good. Do not take heroes set. Its really worthless. Get into a few pug Nax 25 and you get better gear. But still even without any set gear 4600 dps is possible.

That's as bad advice as telling people not to flask up if their gear isn't perfect. Just because your gear will be replaced eventually doesn't mean you shouldn't squeeze out more DPS with gear upgrades until you do.

Ashaera · 01/25/09, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nebel

Ashaera, did you already upload your slow kill 5k+ parse or did I simply miss it? I would really like to have a look at it.

Here's one - Loatheb without killing spores:
4min fight, 5.4k

& a fun one to show what happens when you cut the fight duration down Faerlina 6.9k

Numbers inflated abit by personal Power Infusion slave for most of Naxx. (Ecplise proc, spam macro to disc priest - get awesome haste buff for mad starfire pewpew]

nurotica · 01/25/09, 9:36 PM

Does the Improved Moonfire talent affect the ticks or just the initial hit? I selected the moonfire glyph and the tool tip for Improved Moonfire is a little ambiguous.

If these 2 points do not help the DOT portion of the spell I can reallocate them elsewhere.

Starfox · 01/25/09, 9:47 PM

Originally Posted by nurotica

Does the Improved Moonfire talent affect the ticks or just the initial hit? I selected the moonfire glyph and the tool tip for Improved Moonfire is a little ambiguous.

If these 2 points do not help the DOT portion of the spell I can reallocate them elsewhere.

The talent affects whole moonfire, but additive with the glyph.

Vitanebuna · 01/27/09, 8:07 AM

Hi there people,

Did some extensive testing on both target dummies as well as raids (ok raids can be a little trickier as many things can differ from one to another) and i fail to see the part where keeping IS up is worthy. At least for me it s a loss in dps by a margin as the GCD just eats my brains and fingers. Refreshing IS while facing wraths clipping tends to get very difficult.

I admit i dont have the IS glyph but somehow i doubt that this will change too much the things. So basically my question is how do you keep IS up and if i should really struggle to keep it. Also are there any macros you are using for this?

Sorry if my question is stupid, meant my 1st post to be better but that s my biggest issue atm...

dukes · 01/27/09, 8:13 AM

Just to confirm this: you're trying to draw conclusions on whether a spell is worth casting or not without having the glyph that boosts its damage by 30%? You also seem to be ignoring the effect it has on Wrath due to IIS (which you should swap for IFF anyway, but that's another issue).

Neshalin · 01/27/09, 8:14 AM

With my current gear and the glyph, Insect Swarm deals a little over 5k damage per cast. That is more than the average Starfire and Wrath, so yes it is worth casting. 30% extra damage of the glyph can easily make the difference. As for keeping it up, you basically cast Insect Swarm when it is not up and when you are not in Eclipse.

Nebel · 01/27/09, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

Here's one - Loatheb without killing spores:
4min fight, 5.4k

& a fun one to show what happens when you cut the fight duration down Faerlina 6.9k

Numbers inflated abit by personal Power Infusion slave for most of Naxx. (Ecplise proc, spam macro to disc priest - get awesome haste buff for mad starfire pewpew]

Thanks a lot! Those are impressive numbers. The non-spore Loatheb kill should be quite comparable with one of our patchwerk kills.

I'm glad to see that I'm almost doing the same things as you, speaking of how often I cast SF, MF, IS, etc. the ratios are quite the same. But I saw in my stats that (as an example) my average non-crit SF lands for ~5,2k and yours lands for ~6k. The armory tells me that you have about +400 SP and +200 haste. So I think my lack of patchwerk dps (~4,5k) derives from my crappy gear (and picking up some manareg talents) rather than doing something fundamentally wrong. That's a good feeling. :-)

Now, I'll go out there and find my own personal disc slave. :-)

Dirm · 01/27/09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Neshalin

With my current gear and the glyph, Insect Swarm deals a little over 5k damage per cast. That is more than the average Starfire and Wrath, so yes it is worth casting. 30% extra damage of the glyph can easily make the difference. As for keeping it up, you basically cast Insect Swarm when it is not up and when you are not in Eclipse.

Are you including the fact that IS can't crit when comparing damage? Looking at a parse of mine from last week, my IS averaged 6350 per cast, and my non-crit starfires averaged 5666 per cast. If you ignore haste (which we can safely do, since it won't affect the ratio of damage between the two spells, at least until IS hits the haste cap), then the DPET for the two spells breaks even at about 60.5% crit rate on starfire for the damage numbers above (5666/1.5 =~ (1+0.605)*6350/(3-0.5*0.605)) (ignoring a few factors: IIS, glyph of starfire, CSD). 60.5% is likely going to be lower than eclipsed SF crit rate and higher than non-eclipsed SF crit rate.

Another couple of notes:
IS is obviously an advantage on fights where you need to cast it to allow yourself movement.
For my char, Rawr estimates IS/MF/SF as 5013.25 and MF/SF as 5005.09 (with IIS, glyph of IS, and 2t7). That is about one sixth of one percent difference. It's entirely possible that the reduced complexity from not casting IS could improve one's ability to cast the other spells enough to make up the difference.

I personally keep IS up, but I wanted to elaborate on Neshalin's comparison a bit.

Khalanis · 01/27/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dirm

Are you including the fact that IS can't crit when comparing damage? Looking at a parse of mine from last week, my IS averaged 6350 per cast, and my non-crit starfires averaged 5666 per cast. If you ignore haste (which we can safely do, since it won't affect the ratio of damage between the two spells, at least until IS hits the haste cap), then the DPET for the two spells breaks even at about 60.5% crit rate on starfire for the damage numbers above (5666/1.5 =~ (1+0.605)*6350/(3-0.5*0.605)) (ignoring a few factors: IIS, glyph of starfire, CSD). 60.5% is likely going to be lower than eclipsed SF crit rate and higher than non-eclipsed SF crit rate.

It looks like you've swapped your numbers in the calculation you have there.
IS
6350/1.5
4233DPSc

SF
5666 * crit%{ as additive} / (3.0 - 0.5 * crit%)
0% crit w/ 3.0s cast time
1888DPSc

60.5% crit w/ 2.6975s avg cast time
3371DPSc

100% crit w/ 2.5s cast from NG
4533DPSc